Ken McMullan

On 8/21/2020 at 12:36 AM, Hillmy said:

(to quote the title) FINALLY! 😂

Ah. I see what you did there. My Sense of humour is intact. I appreciate the sentiment!

On 8/20/2020 at 8:54 PM, Starship Krupa said:

I am really glad to hear that! I'm glad that your grousing only extends to the installer.😂

(I hope)

100% CORRECT! Thank you.

14 hours ago, Starship Krupa said:

I hope you're enjoying Cakewalk, anyway!

Love it. It's as easy to use as ever.

On 8/12/2020 at 10:17 AM, Starship Krupa said:

Rather than going through what was obviously an upsetting experience and then ranting about how BandLab should have protected you from all that uncertainty, how about doing some research ahead of time? That's what I do. It seems like you actually did, at least enough to know that Cakewalk was now freeware. It didn't have to stop there.

...

No need for the angst and confusion. The information is readily available.

Like others, you are somewhat correct, but I feel the need to reiterate what I've posted a few times in this thread: The suggestion that I should Google "what should I expect to encounter when I try to install Cakewalk" is unreasonable. I doubt I would have found the response "You'll need to create another social media account and then they'll ask you if you want to install some tools you've never heard of, and which come with no descriptions.

I did my research. I knew the tool I wanted, I installed it. I did not know what tools I did not want. I did not know to search for the tools that I did not know I was going to be offered. Nor did I know that I required to login first.

Thanks everyone for your time. The tantrum is looong gone. The piece of work I wanted to do with it was done the very day I installed it. I went searching for Cakewalk because I knew it could do the one thing I wanted it to do. I didn't need to read reams of documentation to find out about all the other stuff I didn't want it to do.

I've done a good thing here. I hope simplified versions of your helpful explanations can be stored within the installer at some point in the future and, in doing so, I hope you will increase the size of your user base and your excellent community.

16 hours ago, Lord Tim said:

and I think it's pretty clear by now there's no ulterior motive for anything you might be concerned about.

Agreed. But it was at install time I needed to know this.

23 hours ago, aidan o driscoll said:

SO tbh Ken ... your issues noted, its still back to your choice whether to use CW in its present form or not, it was either that OR cakewalk NO MORE. As for many others having an issue with the Bandlab Assistant Utility in general, I would very much doubt that ( people might have functionality issues ok, but Bandlab seem to respond to these ) .. as I said its the new way of doing things and again, personally I have no issue with it, in fact for me it simplifies things .. but hey thats just me!!

PS - Not alone did Bandlab rescue Cakewalk out of the fire, they pretty much also kept most of the original crew of developers in work right up to this day. Some of them have responded to your thread if you look at the sigs of the replies

Again, massively appreciative of your tone and the time taken to ... absorb my concerns.

Make no mistake, it is the same wonderfully functional, rapid piece of software I recall and I will certainly be using it (although, it seems I may struggle with community support due to my honesty).

 My concern remains, though, with the folks who will see unexplained items, which look like additional installers (yes, I  now understand they're just harmless plugins, but i reiterate that this is in no way evident at install time) and cop out. My concern remains wit the people who do not have my pedigree, who will see "ANOTHER username and password?" and cop out.

I now have 4 plugins and don't know what they're for, and a login to another website, and I don't know why. All it required to fix this anguish was a simple pop-up or help button explaining why I was obliged to create a sign-in and what the purpose of the optional plugins was.

Again, I appreciate your time.

On 8/8/2020 at 7:44 PM, Keni said:

Also note that most manufacturers require you to setup an account and include access to their' forums. Thanks ou need not use the forums.

As to installs? Bandlab Assistant is their' download manager. Tiny with little if any time/attention to install. It offers many tools other than that should you ever chose to use them.

 

II'm afraid I'm going to disagree until I understand what you mean by "manufacturers." Very few software houses FORCE you to register on their social media platform before you're even allowed to download their installer.

Bandlab assistant my well be their download manager, but Google Chrome is MY download manager and it's really jolly good and does not require assistance.

No-one has yet been able to explain to me why I require Bandlab. Cakewalk used to (and still appears to) function perfectly well without it.

16 minutes ago, Hillmy said:

I don't see why this thread is still open when it is clearly trolling 😛

For my [art, the thread is 100% factual. I have listed several shortcomings in the install process which may be terribly offputting for new users. I hope I've done a good thing here.  Cakewalk is a superb piece of software and its support community is clearly a knowledgeable one, generous with its time. I would HATE the thought that any potential user be dissuaded by the installer because they thought it was harbouring something they might not want on their computer. With that fact, do what you will. I simply care enough to defend an opinion.

On 8/8/2020 at 10:10 PM, aidan o driscoll said:

Ken,

I feel that Cakewalk (or presumably Bandlab are the new owners) have done themselves a disservice. Can I really be blamed for suspecting a piece of software which has such a baffling installation route which obliges me to install and create an account on a social media platform that I don't want?

You do have a choice .. dont install Cakewalk at all, try another DAW instead? You mentioned you were away for 20 years so to speak. Well if you look at countless other software these days you will see the vast majority now use a utility like Bandlab Assistant to centralise the install and updating of that companies software. Other examples are Native Access for Native Instruments apps, Arturia Software Center for the Arturia plugs, Waves Central for the waves plugs .. the list goes on and on, its the way things are done now because unlike 20 years ago everything is now connected to the cloud/internet. Also handy in that you never need keep the bulky installation files into the future, simply use these portal type utilities to install wherever and whenever you like.

I can read. I got the list of titles with the checkboxes. I'm still at a complete loss, though, as to what any of these items are. It's undeniable that they have the odour, like so many other pieces of "free" software, of something which is trying to tag itself into an installer in the full knowledge that nobody ever reads the EULA!

If you HAD BEEN using Cakewalk more recently than 20 years ago when it was known as Sonar you would have ALSO had the option of installing these extras. The reason its an option is because different people use different things .. plugins etc. Its down to whether you see any use for these optional extras. You can always install them, check them out and if you dont likey go into your Windows Control Panel, Programs & Features and uninstall again. They are optional extras not core software.

If they're so great, why not just install them anyway as part of the package? As I say, I'm obliged to install Bandlab whether I want to or not.

Again they are optional extra's .. up to each user if they feel the need for them or not. As i said, install them, try them, if of no use uninstall them again. Like buying a car with the optionals, however in this case the optionals are FREE to you as is the car itself in this case.

The answer is twofold: The circuituitous route by which I had to obtain the software, and its having invited me to also add some previously unknown, and undescribed add-ins.

Many freeware authors also have sub installers and some of them are adware. That's not even  my point. These are titles meaningful only to people who have used them; meaningless to someone who's installing the software for the first time.

IF you were using Cakewalk way more recently than 20 years ago you would be well familiar with these "sub Installers" as you call them.

Also since 20 years ago the world of MIDI and Sequencer software ( now known as a DAW - Digital Audio Workstation ) has changed substantially. Almost to a point of being unrecognisable if you were to compare now and 20 years ago. BUT if you install the FREE Cakewalk NOW, it is up to you how much or how little of it YOU want to use. You can use just MIDI tracks as of old if you wish, but as I said things are far more advanced and richer now. So up to you whether you wish to embrace all this change or not .. as always YOUR CHOICE, no one is forcing you to install or not to install. 

With respect to the Bandlab Assistant utility which I explained a bit about above, It requires an account login, as this or any other forum requires. The same login you used for this forum is the one you use in the Bandlab Assistant utility. Once into that utility and seeming as it was BANDLAB who graciously took over Cakewalk from the brink of becoming no more .. they have sort of stitched it, as is there right into there Bandlab universe .. but as is with other things above, how much of the Bandlab part you want to use is thoroughly up to you. When in the Bandlab Assistant you can skip all the other bandlab related tabs and simply jump to the APPS tab and JUST install or update Cakewalk from there. You will not be troubled by Bandlab badgering you to use there online DAW or sample system, this has been the case from day one. BTW that bandlab online DAW and samples type thing is used by other companies these days .. an example is LOOPCLOUD who do something sort of similar ( i pay a tener a month for this BECAUSE I choose to use it ).

 

I can confirm that countless software packages do, indeed use this underhand method of piggy-backing other installers, and I'm all to familiar with them. I trust youre' speaking of audio software. Something of which I have no recent experience. Such underhand methods are countless, but thankfully still a minority, and the practice is frowned upon. As it happens, the Cakewalk add-ons were not unrelated packages. They purely looked that way. I can only repeat my concern. They look like tag-ons. They have all the hallmarks of something (potentially malicious) which shouldn't be there.

Couple this with the suspicions which were on high alert due to the fact that I was fist forced to install and create an account on a social media platform, and you have every single signature of something underhand.

Set aside the fact that the newbie doesn't necessarily want to stop in the middle of the installer to go and Google things which should be self-evident.

I really don't mind if my opinion counts or not. If I'm alone in this, then I'm alone, but I wonder how many potential users have given up because they got suspicious of being forced to create another online account, or because they thought they were being asked to install a piece of additional software which came with no explanatory notes?

Incidentally, I sincerely appreciate your taking the time to expand "DAW". I much prefer this approach to the assumption that everyone already knows all the lingo. Your email is an excellent one and 80% of its content should be a "Help" button or a pop-up for the uninitiated within the installer.

23 hours ago, Bill Ruys said:

Hey Ken,

Thanks for patronising us.  You are obviously way smarter than we are and can see where we have all gone wrong in our ignorance.  I suggest you go find another DAW that you trust.

Best of luck.

Not sure which bit you chose to find patronising, but that wasn't my intention. What makes you think I know what a DAW is? I just know that Cakewalk has been (and still is) an excellent MIDI file editor. You repeat the presumption of the software developers that everyone knows all the terminology.

Just briefly put yourself in the shoes of someone who's never installed Cakewalk, but knows they'd like to get into computer music. You get partway through the installer and then ... oh, man what's THIS?

But hey, ignore my sentiment: I'm clearly a minority group. Just bear in mind, that I care enough to point out the folly; at personal expense.

On 8/8/2020 at 6:50 PM, Craig Anderton said:

It's common practice for many software companies to make add-ons as separate installers. For example one DAW has around 20 GB of content. But maybe you already have Kontakt, SampleTank, and a ton of loops. I think it's considerate that you're not forced to download 20 GB of stuff when all you really want is the 180 MB DAW.

In return for using an installer that checks whether your version is up to date and gives the option to download optional plug-ins,  you get a highly capable DAW for free. I just don't see how anyone can have a problem with that. 

I completely agree. Which is why I was very tentative just to install these. Piggy-back installers can be a nightmare. So, when software authors are adding them, they should at least have a brief explanation of what they are, so the user doesn't have to stop what he's doing to go research a road block they weren't expecting to encounter.

I'm struggling to understand what folk are finding unreasonable about this.

On 8/8/2020 at 5:50 PM, kc23 said:

Then google this stuff and read. Newsflash: you are not unique in this world, others have had the same questions, although have expressed them in a polite and respectful manner... and they have been answered. So, go do your homework, instead of coming here complaining about and demanding stuff you ignore because you just don´t want to take the time to research about it. Want some help? start by helping yourself. Don´t like what´s being offered? then don´t install, nobody is forcing you.

Again, do you often Google the meaning of the popup boxes you get during a software install? I should think not. Most folk just click "Next" to get it over with. Bandlab Marketeers KNOW this.

This has all the hallmarks of a covert software deployment. I now know hat it isn't, but as you say, I'm not the only person who's been frustrated by it.

On 8/8/2020 at 2:18 PM, mark skinner said:

If you know how to use Google you can find out what "Anything" is ..   

Indeed. Do you often go research the meaning of the cryptic popup box in the middle of your software installs? I should think not. Nor should you have to.

On 8/8/2020 at 4:38 PM, Jonathan Sasor said:

which are readily available both in our documentation and many user driven tutorials docs that are out there. It's bonus content that used to be included with the paid versions of SONAR so that way you can use additional features immediately with Cakewalk by BandLab.

They're broken into separate installers because that means you don't have to download and install them every time you do a Cakewalk update. Or maybe you don't like virtual instruments and want to save the hard drive space? Drum Replacer could still be handy there if you want to beef up a part though. Some people like to make custom CbB themes, you'll find a bunch of them on this forum or there's Facebook groups of people who share their own custom themes. Other people don't have an interest to make their own, in which case, you don't need to install it. Melodyne is only a trial, but we leverage features from Melodyne for functions like tempo extraction which will work, even with the demo version. 

Not  sure I've ever needed to  read a documentation set BEFORE installing a piece of software. However, the rest of that information alone, as a pop-up tip or something would have been a superb step in the right direction, thanks.

I just don't expect to have to go and do that kind of reserch DURING the install. And your marketing people know that.

On 8/8/2020 at 10:27 AM, Hillmy said:

😛

In fairness to myself, in my day, if I wanted a piece of software, I had to write it myself. Usually with a soldering iron. I can spot a piece of adware, and this has all the signatures.

You all seem great and this is clearly a vibrant, helpful community.

I feel that Cackewalk (or presumably Bandlab are the new owners) have done themselves a disservice. Can I really be blamed for suspecting a piece of software which has such a baffling installation route which obliges me to install and create an account on a social media platform that I don't want?

Knowedgeable and eager a you folk all are, it is encouraging to know that a number among you have quietly forgotten about Bandlab, too!

10 hours ago, Jonathan Sasor said:

None of the add-on installers in the menu that pops up when clicking "install" for Cakewalk have anything to do with social media. You've got installers for the Studio Instruments VSTs (this installer also includes demo projects), the Drum Replacer plugin, a demo of Melodyne, and the Theme Editor if you want to customize Cakewalk's appearance. None of those are required to install/run Cakewalk, but they're all just additional free tools.

I can read. I got the list of titles with the checkboxes. I'm still at a complete loss, though, as to what any of these items are. It's undeniable that theyhave teh odour, like so many other pieces of "free" software, of something which is trying to tag itself into an installer in the full knowledge that nobody ever reads the EULA!

If they're so great, why not just install them anyway as part of the package? As I say, I'm obliged to install Bandlab whether I want to or not.

10 hours ago, JoeGBradford said:

Also can I ask that you don't bite the hand that feeds you. You have access to an amazing programme,which as i say above is being constantly updated, at no cost - what is not to like?! 🙂

The answer is twofold: The circuituitous route by which I had to obtain the software, and its having invited me to also add some previously unknown, and undescribed add-ins.

9 hours ago, JonD said:

Many audio software developers have similar installers/program managers (Steinberg, Native Instruments, Toontrack, XLN Audio, Izotope, Waves,  just to name a few).

Many freeware authors also have sub installers and some of them are adware. That's not even  my point. These are titles meaningful only to people who have used them; meaningless to someone who's installing the software for the first time.

Oh. Apparently I can't describe something as "seriously atypical" on  this forum without being censored.

I used cakewalk about 20 years ago when it was the defacto standard. I recently reacquired my desire to modify MIDI files.

Now that the additional hurdle of being coerced into installing this Bandlab thing (I've no idea what it is, what it's for and I don't care), and eventually finding my way to the actual cakewalk installer, I'm asked which add-ons I'd like to install.

What's the correct answer?

Now I would never dream of asking "what's the best" or such things on forums as it's a completely subjective question, but how the hell should I know which of these presviously unheard, ***** named, and totally unexplained items I'd like to select?

...and, most importantly, which of them is NOT going to force me to install some social media platform which I'm not in the slightest bit interested in?

I've clicked on the download button for Cakewalk. You appear to have uploaded me something called BandLab assistant. I did the download by clicking on the Download link in the Cakewalk product page several times. This would be puzzling to those who didn't immediately grasp your business model.