Jerry Gerber

On 7/7/2020 at 11:33 PM, Trensharo said:

The Staff View has lots of issues, and I could never use it for composition.  It's one of the main reasons why I started looking into other DAWs.  It's barely usable, AFAIC.

The issue is not people misunderstanding what the Staff View is for. It's the fact that it's actually quite bad.  Issues with the Staff View, and people asking for improvements, date back a decade or more.

The fact that someone was able to trudge along in it to produce a lot of music doesn't alter the reality of the situation.  That's great to hear, but it's not going to make me want to use it.  I've already been there, and I'm not revisiting any time soon.

Cakewalk's Staff View makes REAPER's Notation Editor look like Sibelius | Ultimate.  It's that bad in comparison, and the gulf was that wide the second REAPER added this feature, when SONAR had it for like 10+ years.

It needs improvement, IMHO.

Literally no one is asking for this.  People are seeing what's in other DAWs and comparing to that.

1. Cubase
2. Digital Performer
3. Logic Pro X
4. Pro Tools
5. Samplitude Pro
6. REAPER

etc. all have better Staff View/Notation Editors than Cakewalk.  Even MixCraft has better notation editing than Cakewalk.

This isn't a situation of misguided expectations.  This component is just not that good, and it's been this way for a long time.

I am not sure what they're going to do to improve it, or if they even care to improve it, because that market is already dominated by Cubase Pro and Logic Pro X, anyways.  How much do they stand to gain from investing in improving Staff View?

I agree.  When the snap function is fixed, the staff view will be on par with every other DAW that I've used or tried.  The newest DAW to notation, Studio One looks promising due to the dynamic symbols being linked to MIDI cc data, but the dealbreaker is that Studio One doesn't seem to have an Event List.  Every DAW has an event list, it's one of the most useful tools for working with cc data,  and copying and pasting notes, program changes and cc data all at the same time. 

Even without the snap function working, I still have gotten pretty fast at entering notes.  Enlarging the staff helps. 

I've been using Cakewalk since 1992 and have never even once used the piano-roll view.  As you pointed out,  for polyphonic music with a lot of counterpoint, nothing beats notation.

Jerry

I downloaded Reaper a few years ago and tried it for a week and found it counter-intuitive.  Powerful and comprehensive, yes, but in my 32 years of using software, music and otherwise, I have found the best software is designed so well that even without reading the manual (which I always do) you can start to work in it right away.  A software program's power and capabilities must be matched by an elegant simplicity in terms of actually using it (reminds me of a comment a musician one said about Mozart's music:  So simple a child can enjoy it and so sophisticated it will appeal to most learned musician).  I didn't find this with Reaper.  But, once again, to each his own, everyone is going to have a different reaction to an app in regard to whether it fits their requirements or not. 

I also looked at Studio One recently.  No event list?  Every DAW has an event list, an absolute must for keeping track of program changes, cc changes and other types of MIDI events.

4 hours ago, Tobias said:

You make valid points, but I feel I must point out that you are dead wrong about spinach. Spinach is objectively horrible! 

I'm drafting legislation now to make eating it punishable by no more than 60 days in jail and/or a $500 fine.  That'll take care of it!

12 hours ago, Trensharo said:

The Staff View has lots of issues, and I could never use it for composition.  It's one of the main reasons why I started looking into other DAWs.  It's barely usable, AFAIC.

The issue is not people misunderstanding what the Staff View is for. It's the fact that it's actually quite bad.  Issues with the Staff View, and people asking for improvements, date back a decade or more.

The fact that someone was able to trudge along in it to produce a lot of music doesn't alter the reality of the situation.  That's great to hear, but it's not going to make me want to use it.  I've already been there, and I'm not revisiting any time soon.

Cakewalk's Staff View makes REAPER's Notation Editor look like Sibelius | Ultimate.  It's that bad in comparison, and the gulf was that wide the second REAPER added this feature, when SONAR had it for like 10+ years.

It needs improvement, IMHO.

Literally no one is asking for this.  People are seeing what's in other DAWs and comparing to that.

1. Cubase
2. Digital Performer
3. Logic Pro X
4. Pro Tools
5. Samplitude Pro
6. REAPER

etc. all have better Staff View/Notation Editors than Cakewalk.  Even MixCraft has better notation editing than Cakewalk.

This isn't a situation of misguided expectations.  This component is just not that good, and it's been this way for a long time.

I am not sure what they're going to do to improve it, or if they even care to improve it, because that market is already dominated by Cubase Pro and Logic Pro X, anyways.  How much do they stand to gain from investing in improving Staff View?

Just because you haven't learned to use it is no reason to project and say it's unusable.  It's unusable FOR YOU.    I don't like spinach, that's a subjective truth.  But I cannot say that spinach is objectively bad, I can only say I don't like it.    I used Digital Performer's QuickScribe for 18 months, every day.  It's not any better than Cakewalk; it has a few features that are better, but Cakewalk has features that are better for composition for me.    How could a classically-trained composer who has produced 14 albums and over 750 soundtrack cues work in the staff view if it's "unusable"?  Maybe I know something you don't?  Try to recognize the difference between a subjective evaluation, which you're certainly entitled to, and a overgeneralized sweeping statement that doesn't take into account the experience of others.

From the CD Number 11: The Path

Scored for VSL Cube and various software synthesizers

PLAY

Reply

I forgot to tell you all about the workaround I discovered in the staff view when the snap function gets stuck on 1/32 notes.

Here it is:  Revert the screen set you're using to its saved version. 

This will, at least temporarily, fix the snap so that it can be used with larger note values...

Jerry

Hi Noyekker,

Thanks for taking the time to listen, much appreciated..

I listen to works I've written over the years and always find things I like and don't like about what I did.  That's how I learn, by reacting and analyzing what I did and finding ways to do it better.  It's a never ending journey I suppose.  I like the motivic development in this movement and I think from the standpoint of composition it's an improvement over some of my earlier movements which don't have the degree of structural cohesion that this movement has.  Then again, I might have a listen in several years from now and change my mind. 

Jerry

On 6/21/2020 at 8:30 PM, InstrEd said:

Thanks Jerry for the link. I'm still amazed at the detail in your virtual pieces.  Also glad you're back using Cakewalk DAW.

Thanks Ed!

Of the forty symphonic movements I've written thus far, this is one of my favorites.

From the CD Time Shadows

PLAY

35 minutes ago, winkpain said:

Agreed.

CW, nor any other DAW, is the right tool for the particular job of writing (certainly not publishing) music notation properly, and I don't expect it to be. That's why I shared my Rewire/Sibelius "workaround". It provides the best of both worlds in a way.

However, I also agree that it will be a grand day if/when the fantastic folks at CbB have the time to upgrade the Staff View, since there are certainly enough of us who like to work with notation in DAW composition (as this and other threads bear out), or at least like to have it as a viable, full-functioning option.

I am deeply and continually impressed over this last year with CbB's staff and their unflagging attention to this product and its broad base of constituent users, and I know you can't please everyone, but I highly doubt it is true that, as I read elsewhere here by someone seeming to say "why bother" fixing Staff View when they said there are "easily 100 or more" times as many people who don't use Staff View as those who do. I wonder where they got their data from! And since it remains as part of the program, it seems worthy as any of the other tools for upgrade consideration. 

As this is the Feedback Loop, that is my feedback.

But as I say, I'm quite happy working with the Rewire option when needed.

I've produced 10 symphonies, many short works, songs and 14 albums using the CW staff view.  It works for composition if you are composing in and for the electronic medium. I've used Sibelius for my scores for 15 years or so and will continue to.  The staff view is for MIDI input and editing, and of course, composition. It's not for publishing, preparing final scores or parts or for presenting written music to players for rehearsal, recording or performance.  Once you understand the difference, it's not hard to exploit the staff view for composing.  You can hear numerous recordings I've made in the "Songs" section of this forum and I think you'll agree that for complex arrangements and orchestration the staff view works quite well.  It just needs a few tweaks and bug fixes as we discussed above.

Jerry

On 6/24/2020 at 6:17 AM, Wookiee said:

I listened to the first track and I did enjoy very much thank you for sharing.

You're welcome!

Scored for:

VSL trumpet

Kontakt bongos

Softsynths FM8, Rapture, Tera and Massive

VSL violin

From the album Cosmic Consciousness

PLAY

3 hours ago, noynekker said:

Hi Jerry . . . so uplifting to listen to your compositions here on our Cakewalk forum, it's such a journey for the ears, this one is particularly amazing . . . have you ever had your compositions played by a live orchestra ? If that came to my town I would surely go see it !

Thanks noynekker.  When I was working on my college degree in music composition and theory I heard my works played often by ensembles.  But it's very difficult to get a top orchestra to play long pieces, only about 15% of music programmed in the U.S. by orchestras is by living composers.   If an orchestra wanted to play one of my pieces and offered me both sufficient rehearsal time and a recording of course I would say yes.  But the politics of getting an unknown piece played and recorded are formidable.  I actually am quite content to realize my work electronically as I love working in the digital medium.  I am more interested in music as a recording art than a performance art..

I posted this interview a few months ago but I am getting questions about how I sequence music using the staff view so I am re-posting it I hope it is helpful.  Here's the link:

https://soundbytesmag.net/interview-jerry-gerber-on-masterful-virtual-orchestration/

Thanks InstrEd!   I am able to work in the staff view the way I do because I was composing and playing music decades before I even knew what a DAW was.  I think the better of a player one is, the more likely it is to transfer that knowledge of phrasing, articulation, gesture, intention and musicality in general to music that is sequenced within a DAW.  

9 hours ago, InstrEd said:

I

1 hour ago, bitflipper said:

Damn, this is so good, Jerry! Jeez, I wish I knew how to make brass that expressive.

Thanks bitflippper.

If your brass samples don't have built-in dynamics (the samples are of actual instruments going from p to f, or pfp, or f to p, etc. then you have to do it with cc7 or cc11.  That's how I did it before I had the VSL library.  If you write for 3 trumpets, and they're all playing the same line, make sure you de-tune them from each other a little bit, maybe 5 or 10 cents, and also make sure you stagger them so that one starts on the beat, one starts maybe 10 ticks early and one starts 10 ticks late.  This will open up and give a much fuller sound and create more distinction between 1 trumpet and 3, or 1 trombone and 3, etc.

Also, since brass sit in the back of the orchestra, if you give them a little longer reverb and very slightly more reverb, that can make a difference.   Experiment, there's no right way or wrong way to sequence music...

Jerry

On 6/16/2020 at 5:44 PM, msmcleod said:

In the next release, the staff view will respect the global snap setting for note positioning. The note duration settings will remain unchanged.

In other words,  you'll be able to independently set the note duration and the snap positioning. 

Dear msmcleod,

Any chance you know when this new version with the snap function fixed will be available?

Thanks,

Jerry

Yep, the problem was the themes.  When I reverted back to one of the 2 original themes, I see now that the Inspector uses icons now rather than text.

I sure hope the themes I like are being updated, I'll head over to that section of the site and check....

Best,

Jerry

1 hour ago, msmcleod said:

As of 2020.04. the pro channel tabs have been replaced with icons. If you're getting text, then it's probably because you're using a custom theme.

This post details the elements that need changing:
 

 

Great, thank you.  This might be because I am using themes.  I hope the theme-makers update their work because there are a few themes I really like a lot...

Jerry

Hi,

In regard to the latest CWB update:

I just noticed that the Inspector now has an added function called "Arranger".  But this added tab cuts off the text from "Pro Channel" and and I don't see a way to expand the Inspector so that all the text shows..  It looks cramped.  Even when I undock the Inspector the "Pro Channel" tab has some garbled text in it...

Any solution to this?  Can I remove the "arranger" tab from the Inspector?

I attached a screenshot using Microsoft Word (.docx) that shows the glitch...

Thanks,

Jerry

Pro Channel.docx

1 hour ago, AndyB01 said:

Seriously impressive work to compose in that way and get results like this - Tom had it with 'I'm humbled' - #ditto. Andy

Thanks Andy, and thanks for listening!

Jerry

Yep, as I always do.  I use the mouse to pop notes on to staves, occasionally I'll play parts in, but nearly the entire composition is composed using the mouse, the staff view, the event list and of course tons of controller data, tempo changes, velocity changes and attack/release data.  Since I am using VSL, I've got a very large pallet of articulations and sample sets, which helps a lot.

Thanks for listening, glad you enjoyed it Bjorn..

From the album Virtual Harmonics

Scored for VSL Symphonic Cube

PLAY