Craig Reeves

I'm currently working on the most comprehensive and complete video on Cakewalk by Bandlab's workflow issues. Still editing everything but it's coming along.

22 hours ago, msmcleod said:

I just want to re-iterate what @Lord Tim said in his original post, and add my 2p's worth...

What we're really looking for here is examples of where it's easier (or perhaps more intuitive) to do a particular task in another DAW compared to doing the same task in CbB. 

So we're talking about workflow features that CbB already has, and how the workflow could improve.  One example per post would help, describing how it's done in a particular DAW vs the same operation in CbB.

Also existing features that could simply be improved.

We're NOT talking about new features - they're better off as separate posts in the Feedback Loop section.

I would re-iterate (as Tim has already said), that any changes in workflow is a double-edged sword.  We don't want to upset/derail existing users by changing the existing workflow, nor do we want do dumb-down the workflow so much that the flexibility/granular control users rely on is lost.  At the same time, we do want to look into facilitating a far more intuitive & streamlined workflow.  Kind of contradictory, I know.  However the smart-tool is one example of how this could be done.

Drum Map / MIDI routing / Tab re-ordering are excellent examples of how existing features could be improved (thanks @Starship Krupa / @scook ).

Some comparisons with other DAW's would be great though (especially animated gif's to make it obvious).  Devs working on a single DAW day to day, means we rarely get time to really use another DAW beyond the most basic operations, and from some of the replies so far, it seems we're not the only ones.

One other thing... it strikes me that there are ways of doing things very quickly in CbB, but they're just not immediate obvious/intuitive to new users.  Drawing / manipulating shelves in automation springs to mind here, and also what modifiers do in drag/drop operations. The functions of modifiers are almost never explained in the help-module... maybe they should be.

If anyone has any ideas as to how we could make these operations more obvious to a newbie, we're all ears.

I'm working on a Youtube video right now that showcases every workflow issue with Cakewalk and detailed explanations on what can be improved.

On 6/10/2023 at 4:42 PM, Craig Anderton said:

Take any DAW, and different people will find aspects of it they find more or less convenient than other DAWs. "Clunky" gets into very subjective territory, very fast. 

 

 

 

Yeah. I use Ableton Live and Cakewalk frequently. Love both and find great use in both. There's about 40 things I absolutely hate about both...

On 6/10/2023 at 2:37 PM, Lord Tim said:

Hopefully this won't descend into a free-for-all mess like some threads do! Please try to keep on topic and post respectfully.

So, we've all seen the announcement by now that going forward the new Cakewalk products are switching to a paid model. Whether you agree or disagree with that isn't really the point of this thread (by all means, continue to duke it out in the Announcement Thread).

This thread is in relation to seeing the mention on several Cakewalk-centric YouTube channels, and a few posts around here and social media saying that now that Cakewalk is a paid product, it should be treated as such, and not get a free pass for its "clunky" areas.

Now, I'm going to state up front that I 100% agree with the "it should not be given any free passes now that it's becoming a paid product" statement, but I'll go further to say that even as a free product, I don't think anyone should have been looking at it as such. This was the formerly full flagship commercial product during the pre-Bandlab days, with countless bug fixes and extra features. No matter what it cost, it should be judged on its own merits. Nothing should be different now.

But one thing has stuck with me from these sentiments: "Clunky."  The notion that other DAWs are doing something different/better than what CbB (and presumably Sonar going forward) is doing.

Some base qualifications here:

1. I'm not starting this thread to blindly defend CbB, this is a genuine attempt at getting other perspectives. It's also not the opposite, I'm not starting this to invite CbB bashing either. It's also not here to crap on any of the YouTube channels either - they're good people with their own valid opinions on things.
    
2. I'm particularly talking about other traditional recording style DAWs, so things like Ableton Live and Tracktion Waveform, etc. that use an entirely different paradigm is beyond the scope of what I'm talking about here. There's a reason most of us are using CbB here, rather than any of those other ways to record, so my comparisons would be things like Cubase, Studio One, REAPER, ProTools, etc. that share a similar workflow.
    
3. This is NOT a discussion about features or OS ports. So while saying "there's no Mac version" or "where is the Sampler" etc. are fair questions, they're better suited for the Feedback Loop forum. I'm definitely not talking about missing effects or anything like that.

So with that all said, for those of you familiar (and especially very fluent) with other DAWs, what are they doing that's making CbB look clunky in comparison?

Is it part of the UX (I don't mean the design, I mean how it works - the User Experience) that's easier to use on a competing product? Creating tracks? Editing? Multiple open project work?

What stuff do you do in your other DAW that feels like it's not as intuitive or takes longer in CbB?

Why am I asking? Am I a paid Bandlab shill? No (although if someone wants to give me money.... 🤔)  I'm just a user like the rest of you guys, who has been around quite a long while and uses Cakewalk stuff professionally in my day to day job.

I'm seeing these comments and... honestly, with all the playing around with other DAWs I've done over the years, I can't see where a lot of the criticism is coming from (some, yes, but the amount of "this is better in other DAWs" comments I've seen over the last few days with absolutely nobody expanding on exactly what, is making me go "am I missing something here, or is this all just a lot of subjective opinions triggered by the payment model announcement?")

Again, please take this as a genuine question in good faith, I'm keen to know what everyone thinks! 

A final disclaimer: as I said, I'm just a user like everyone else, and nothing I'm saying here is in any way connected to Bandlab or any decision making they do, but I'd like to think they'll have a good look through the thread here and take on board any good suggestions or comparisons.

 

So, people, what (if anything) specifically is making CbB seem clunky in comparison to the other similar commercial DAWs? Let's hear it  

I'm literally working on a highly detailed video that showcases all the areas in which Cakewalk's workflow can be improved. I wish I could finish it a little sooner but I have a day job so I don't have as much time as I'd like to devote to it, but it should be ready by the middle of this week.

7 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said:

All the DPI awareness work done was for the Sonar application. Cakewalk Next is already vector based.

Cakewalk Sonar is a hybrid DPI aware application. Plugin's need to be independently made DPI aware for them to be scalable. By default, Sonar assumes that plugins are DPI aware and if there are scaling problems noted it can be disabled on a per plugin basis. There is a new "Enhanced Display Scaling" option in the plugin properties settings to control this.
However only a few Cakewalk plugins are fully DPI aware - for example the prochannel modules. For the others you may have to disable the per plugin "Enhanced Display Scaling" for them to work. When Enhanced Display Scaling is off we rely on Windows to handle the scaling when running high dpi monitors.
In the future we may update some cakewalk plugins to also be DPI aware like we're doing with Sonar but it's not on the roadmap ATM.
IOW High DPI support is not available across the board for all plugins. It depends on the specific plugin.

 

With the new vector-based UI, does this mean vertical zoom could show more tracks without scrolling? I've always envied how Logic, PT, Cubase, Studio One and all the other major DAWs could vertical zoom so much you could literally see 100+ tracks without scrolling. This would really help with people who do film scoring where they're working with templates of 200+ tracks or more.

On 2/15/2022 at 9:37 AM, Noel Borthwick said:

@Craig Reeves can you please verify whether build 28.02.0.026 resolves the autotune issue? We don't have any way of verifying it since our license has expired.

Thanks, Neil. Issue was completely resolved in this latest release (2022.02 build 029)! 

38 minutes ago, Noel Borthwick said:

@Craig Reeves Please read the prior threads. I posted an update to try that may fix the auto tune issue as well.
The build linked in the first post in this thread is the latest.

So sorry about that! I'll be sure to test out the newest one! Thanks for the quick response!

However, my prior complaint stands. This new Early Release messes up Auto-tune Pro, causing a distortion effect on stereo tracks. I just rolled back to the current release and the problem is gone. So this is indeed a bug in this Early Release.

Literally just found it now right when you posted. Thanks!

*sigh*

My God I'm having a lot of problems I really don't have time for. OK, so I uninstalled Cakewalk by Bandlab and now I can't re-install it, because my Bandlab Assistant under Cakewalk keeps saying "Update" and not "Install". But I uninstalled Cakewalk.

So I click "Update" and it just sits there forever at "Downloading (0/0)". Is anybody else experiencing this issue?

It seems that Bandlab Assistant still thinks Cakewalk by Bandlab is installed on my computer when it isn't. I restarted my computer and I'm running into the same issue.

I uninstalled and then re-installed Bandlab Assistant. Same issue. I can't possibly be the only one having this issue.

Is anybody else's Bandlab Assistant screwing up? Is it down or something? I uninstalled Cakewalk to re-install the current release (sorry but this Early Release ain't it) but now it's not letting me install Cakewalk at all. It's stuck at 0/0 Downloading.

Show-stopping bug, here.

Auto-tune Pro on a Stereo track does not work properly anymore. It creates a weird chorus effect or it distorts the sound entirely.

I do want to be clear I still think Cakewalk is awesome and I love it. Trust me, I have FAR more scathing things to say on the Ableton forum, and they never listen to me...

Still my favorite DAW but at this point I've just resigned to the fact this will always be a buggy and crash-prone DAW. Pro tip: ALWAYS have auto-save ON, saving at least every 2 minutes. It crashes, far, far more often than any other DAW I use. 

Ableton for instance, it's like night and day as far as stability.  

Cakewalk crashes at least once or twice every time I use it. Something as simple as moving or transposing an audio clip can cause it to randomly hang or crash for no apparent reason. It's never really the same predictable thing (transposing audio makes it crash A LOT).

It's just a capricious, rickety, buggy program and always will be. I would imagine it's probably built on a lot of bad and buggy code and it would take way too much time to rewrite a lot of it. It's still a very good program, but people just have to know that going in. ALWAYS have Auto-save on. Although to be fair Cakewalk will sometimes crash while trying to Auto-save, which at our studio we call "Cakewalk tripping and falling again".

That said, I know and appreciate the fact the Bakers are trying very hard to make the program more stable.

BIG TIP:

When using Opus, make sure to choose as your MIDI Input MIDI Ch. 1 of the MIDI controller. Leaving it at MIDI Omni will cause your MIDI to triple-record.

6 hours ago, scook said:

Try setting ExceptionHandlingSeverity to 7 in Preferences >  Initialization File to force a dump

For more info see the Improved plug-in exception handling / crash reporting section in http://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=Cakewalk&language=3&help=NewFeatures.023.html

That did it! I will send over the crash dump to Cakewalk's support team! Thanks!

3 minutes ago, bitflipper said:

Unable to reproduce here. Did you get a dump? (%appdata%\cakewalk\cakewalk core\minidumps)

No dump was produced in either that folder or the Plugins subfolder.

IK Hammond B-3X does not open in Cakewalk by Bandlab. Opening it crashes the program.  Anyone else able to reproduce this? It opens fine in Ableton and Studio One.

I've requested this before but the only MIDI legato is by running CAL, which is buggy and doesn't work very well. It's one of those features I really miss when coming back from Ableton.

2 hours ago, Noel Borthwick said:

CPU power should not be an issue at all with fast bounce irrespective of 64 bit, since the bounce speed is gated by the CPU power available.
If there were clicks its likely one of the plugins introducing them. Perhaps you can try disabling the plugins one by one to try and find at what point the clicks stop.

I have a feeling it may be Ozone, because it just seems that once I started using it, I began having problems when I leave the 64-bit Engine checked.

1 hour ago, bitflipper said:

More likely it's just because the 64-bit option causes Cakewalk to use twice as much memory during the render. When a process runs out of memory it has to request more from the operating system, which takes a little time. Worst case, you could be running out of physical RAM and forcing Windows to page out chunks of memory to disk. The fact that it correlates to Ozone may just be because Ozone uses (I should say can use, depending on settings) far more memory than most other plugins.

IMO there is no benefit to the 64-bit render option, so regardless of what the actual underlying problem was, you've fixed it.

That's certainly within the realm of possibility. I have 128 GB of RAM, which is the maximum amount of RAM my motherboard can handle. Although I don't know exactly how FAST that RAM is. 

It looks like it was the 64-bit Engine after all that was the culprit. I believe that Ozone 9 may have its own audio processing that it does that doesn't jive with the 64-bit engine. As soon as I unchecked it, my projects are bouncing perfectly. If anyone else has this problem, we'll now know what to tell them. Thanks guys! 

I'll try to reproduce the bug when I get home.

I suspect the issue is related to a plugin, possibly Ozone 9 but I can't be certain of that. I'll try to troubleshoot some more once I get some downtime.

3 hours ago, John Vere said:

I'm not in the habit of bouncing but what comes to mind is your clips are just a bit to hot to begin with so the rendering ( number crunching) pushes something that was too close over the top. I do know this can happen when you export a hot mix that never peaks in the Master bus, but after export will show overs in a wave editor.  I write it off as digital mojo.   I would recommend working at a safer level.  

Just thinking an easy solution would be to put a brickwall limiter set at -.1 or?  in the effects bin of the track( buss) before bouncing. 

I thought that was the case too, so I turned the master bus down to where there was no digital clipping (there wasn't to begin with) and the problem still persisted. I finally got a clean bounce but I had to slow-bounce along with the audio bounce.