LarsF

17 minutes ago, winkpain said:

And, of course, the fact that you didn't even intend for them to be on - which is the strange part.

So, speaking of the ProChannel modules then, is there any reason other than preference/taste to prefer them or not compared to VSTs added to the FX bin?  I have tended to think of them as more "efficient", perhaps just in a workflow and/or signal flow manner, but when stopping to actually think about it now, I realize that this may be not really true...

Yes, it's weirdness above the most for me - never had those PC visible anywhere.

I heard only good things about PC stuff, but for me I bought all in Waves 7 years ago - SSL, NLS, CLA compressors, HLS strip - which I use everywhere. So switching daw, I don't need to relearn anything. So what shapes the sound - always the same that I know well.

I've was led astray from Sonar, kind of, looking for real good notation built in and landed on Cubase, since that was not more expensive than top notch notation. Figured I continue use Sonar and just do notation in Cubase - but migrated to Cubase Pro all the way for VCA, chord tracks, arranger tracks and whatnot. But waiting forever for new video engine in Cubase after MS deprecated quicktime, I was severly disappointed once it came - so went to StudioOne which did video really well(1/5 cpu same project), and had smooth conversion of Cubase track archives to StudioOne songs in a flash. But now back on Cakewalk, really had forgotten how good it is.....so it was a good thing having everything in 3rd party plugins that I knew well.....

 

...so a hint to Bakers what can happend when you cannot do triplet based stuff like shuffle in Cakewalk.....true story...

2 hours ago, winkpain said:

What does this mean??

Surely we should be able to use ProChannel on all tracks, shouldn't we? Or is this an issue only in the case of this many tracks  as mentioned in the OP? If so, then, how many tracks is too many?

 

It's like any plugins - there is a limit depending on computer you have.

If I were to be aware of it was plugins, put there by intention, I could just freeze tracks and the plugins are releasing resources again.

So the effect would be merged into the new audio.

In  my case unaware they were running realtime, and no need for them either, I didn't do that - just removed them.

 

So remember, any plugins including VST instruments running realtime while mixing can be frozen and you got a system with headroom again. Cakewalk freezing is the best in the business - very easy to do, and you get audio on all outs from instruments as well - this is very uncommon. So smooth to see the audio from instruments and helpful as doing automation, if any, later. As easy to undo as well, if any more recording or editing needed.

 

Easy to forget about freezing....

I did check the template, and it had all gray look as module in console - like it did actually when you first tipped on that that.

In Inspector Pro-tab it's so cluttered with fields I don't even know how to see it there. I never had that visible, ever, since I ran Sonar Artist before and did not have it.

Really weird, I would certainly have seen that clear lit orange marker that it's active as I short displayed that module in console. Rahter big orange button on gray background.

It had activated both compressor and tube saturation on 47 tracks, 94 instances, and also on the bus version extra 2.

I guess some kind of macro operation I did with all tracks selected, or some Undo. But only did 3-4 Undo I think on total of this. Not a serious recording serving anything but just reference test which guitars and pickup and amps and processing to use on them, as  a training course, kind of.

 

So don't think it was there from start - even if duplicating every track would have picked that up for every new track.

Since tracks also were made stereo interleave, which I know I sat and recorded as mono from start.

 

Computers.....can't live with them....can't live without them.... isn't that what they say....;)

11 hours ago, David Baay said:

Check to see if some Prochannel module is enabled on all tracks.

It turns out you were all right about that - how the heck did this get turned on.

I did check right after you posted - and everything gray in console pro channel module - but now it were orange showing active somehow.

Also extra 10% cpu was added that tracks became stereo - and no clue how that happend either.

I am 100% sure it was all set to mono with mono input and all tracks marked as mono interleave while recording.

 

So all playing in 11% cpu now.

Thanks, but never used those. I did more test, will add comment in first post.

Hi

EDIT. so it turns out prochannels was activated by something, no clue what did that.

Project template I started with made - MyBlank - did not have it active - nor did I have it visible, i close that module first thing.

Never been in tab in Inspector Pro either either.

But I do use Ctrl+A a lot and to makro operations, clicking buttons on/off, inserting sends, changing output destination and stuff.

Just relieved I found reason for it, puuuh

 

Discovered some strange stuff today, and didn't really look at cpu before it started crackling.

I recorded 40 simple mono audio tracks, each 2 minutes yesterday and all seemed to be below limits - so no crackles or anything.

I do solo only one track at a time, so 39 not playing.

Added two sends, one to reverb and one to an ir on two busses - routed to master.

All fine still.

Added 7 more tracks I recorded today, and then it crackles severly every 5-10s or so - on playback thank god, recorded stuff seemed clean.

I think it started reaching limit at about 45 tracks total, and last two I recorded crackles a lot while recording.

 

So looked at task manager - just having project loaded it uses 60% on 5 cores, and doing playback on 6 cores - 4 core with HT, of 8 logical cores.

So looked at thread scheduling, it was at 1 but set to 2 to try out, restarted and so forth - but no difference.

 

I tried archiving all but 2 tracks - and cpu went down to 5%, hardly noticable.

So unarchived again, and tried turn off always run audio through fx in preferences.

Then it only uses same cpu while doing playback

 

But what is consuming so much cpu, one wonders?

47 tracks, and one soloed and only playing.

I tried disabling the effects, but noticed no difference.

I tried disabling sends on tracks and maybe did 2-3% or something.

 

The only thing that made a difference was archiving all not playing.

 

But in simple terms this means I cannot run projects larger than 45 tracks total - with just simple audio - not good.

 

I will export as omf to Cubase and check, and do track archives from Cubase over to StudioOne and come back with report on all.

But thought I'd here what is your experience as soon as project grow a bit?

 

This was an experiment just recording electric guitars, with various settings and amps and stuff.

I don't even remember when I had crackles on my RME HDSP 9632, if ever.

Projects mixed midi and audio summing up to 33 tracks+10 busses and plugin use 30% on 4 cores(15 total as shown) and works fine, as other projects I have in Cakewalk as well. But those originate in Sonar.

 

A bit worried about this.

 

So did tests in Cubase Pro 9.5 and StudioOne Pro 4.6,

Cubase 8% cpu, evenly distributed over all cores.

StudioOne 6% cpu, evenly distributed - no core higher.

Cakewalk 40% total, 60% or 6 cores.

I don't run 64 bit audio engine in any of them.

EDIT2:

I did to complete an import of omf again to Cakewalk - and result was interesting.

Cakewalk - 4% cpu same conditions.

 

So difference is two missing sends on each track that seem to be real costly.

I will continue and add sends to this imported and see what happends - to be continued....

EDIT 3:

So I added three busses, master and two effect busses with same plugins.

Then added two sends from each track to these two busses.

 

Result Cakewalk cpu 11% spread on 4 cores. That was a relief.

 

Opening old project cpu 60% on 6 cores.

As far as I can tell - exactly the same project.

 

What might go on here?

 

Thanks for any ideas....

I just don't get why manufacturer keep installing these crap piezo's.

A couple of years ago I played a Yamaha A3R in a shop. lovely sounding guitar acoustically. But they put this stupid electronic system inside that do this IR thingy, and make it sound miked and a mix knob for that. Not all bad IMO, but still stupid thing when they could either create something like KKsound Pure mini or make a deal with them as OEM or something.

 

Yamaha ruined a perfectly nice build of an acoustic, put very heavy eletronics inside weighing like electric solid body, almost.

At least the LL series just have a small passive piezo you can just rip out and replace with kksound.

 

I have a Recording King RP1 with kksound pure mini that I installed. The same with Martin D16GT. Then do a DPA4099G on those as a second mike getting nice stereo and even little phase/chorusing effect from time difference for sound in each mike. Virtaully no room sound, all guitar and wood is what comes through.

 

Taylor ES2 are really good as well, and do DPA4099G on that too, same loveliness.

 

Just overall, why do they do this piezo that nobody wants?

Obviously real good guitarmakers - and they put the stamp "cheap" all over it - just don't get it?

- Ok, I feel better now doing this rant.....;)

I find that hardware emulating plugins like Waves CLA series and HLS don't like too hot input. Gain knob adjust as said how hot it hits first plugin.

If they are going for -18 dBFs or something.

So either clip gain envelopes or this overall gain on track is very helpful. If to wish for something it would be that they work on monitor of input as well, which I recall is not the case - only playback. Useful to just increase what you record there as well for more gain, even if using dim on solo.

Many thanks for taking the time.

I am on windows 7 - will see if about older project or something, or if different if inserted on bus or track and similar.

Thanks a lot for the effort.

But to see redrawing issues you probably don't need the midi stuff, if that was the intent.

Clicking to the right of Preset field there should come up a really long preset list menu, all over screen almost. Nothing happends for me, unless running it inside Patchwork.

And without that part the midi input is no good anyway.

The controls on panel seem to work and changes how it sounds etc.

 

But no cow on the ice, I have functionality through Patchwork right now.

But if can confirm I could link to this thread reporting to Cakewalk.

Cool, that I did not know about, thanks, will be useful in future.

Problem remained though for XilsLab LX122 Premium plugin - nothing worked for redrawing and no presets were visible.

But inside Patchwork everything redraws and works fine. I am to report later to Bakers, but will cumulate some more to report first.

Just to explain a bit about some other daws

- Reaper adds asio buffer sizes to process as soon as any plugin latency is reported, multiple even, just add as plugins report. So having 128 or 256 samples that means first plugin with 1 sample latency or more add one more buffer.

- StudioOne the same, has minimum extra 64 samples processing buffer

You get longer roundtrip latency in these daws due to this, but maybe higher threshold to crackles.

 

First thing I noticed running Reaper 10 years ago - I had to go down to 64 samples to get acceptable roundtrip latency while recording.

So this could be one reason that margins are lower in Cakewalk - but get better roundtrip latency a lot of the time.

 

I tested various audio interfaces 10 years ago as I got my current daw computer - firewire as first.

Sonar freaked out with just one VST instrument unless I increased asio buffer size on step from what I used with rme.

Audio ran fine, just VST instruments seem to have some special routing going making it vulnerable.

But freeze in Cakewalk is the best implementation among all daws, giving you audio on all outputs etc - so no problem using that if project grows to crackles of some sort.

Having no crackle issues, RME HDSP 9632 64 samples asio buffer and i7-860 2.8 GHz, even with largest projects I have now 80-85 tracks - but run majority external midi gear since 6-7 years back. I just like hardware at my fingers more than mouse click-fest.

I just found that I don't need to run instruments live constantly - so over all tip is to test if freezing making audio of it all helps any crackles you have. Unfreezing and re-recording is so smooth in Cakewalk I would not think twice doing that if having problem.

 

So how much is due to VST instruments running live - just test if way forward freezing them changes anything - is my tip. Unless recording a specific instrument right now - no need to use resources on live - especially not in Cakewalk.

Hi

Steps to take

- Load Bluecat Audio PatchworkSynth on a bus(insert softsynth)

- load effect plugin you want to control on a row in Patchwork(I made one row 3 columns and activate that row on/off button).

- Click on the loadspot for effectplugin and see to that midi input is from host(I think it is by default)

- create a midi track that target PathworkSynth instance.

- done and save as preset in Patchwork and possibly track template in Cakewalk

 

Now I use a stereo send from audio track to this bus and that works nicely controlling it with midi track.

I have not found another way to do this in Cakewalk.

 

In my case I wanted to try XilsLab LX122 Premium leslie plugin and compare to leslie emulation built into my Hammond XK3c, but didn't want to bother unless this was solved playing realtime doing leslie.

I made midi learn on horn+drum on/off to expression pedal or mod wheel as you please.

 

Patchwork is very useful for loading masses of vst midi plugins(piz series bundles as example) together with various VST instruments as well.

So really good investment I think.

 

Thanks for reading.

I see, thank you, that explains it.

A simple button to open it for editing would help in Preferences.

Or are the buttons put stuff in Wincake section in cakewalk.ini - very unclear as it is now?

I wanted the coloring of velocity gone, so just looked at how to do that.

But seems theme stuff override anyway, I see no difference at first glance.

EDIT: added in the right cakewalk.ini and this comes up in Preferences dialog.

I found cakewalk.ini in 2 places - where you said as well as under C:\program data\cakewalk\cakewalk core

Same created date as install Cakewalk was made - maybe that was the wrong one.

I believe the AllUsers part under c:\programdata has to be granted by installer, as I found.

c:\Users is another case which %appdata% send you.

 

I reported a problem with this in Feedback section, not having user priviledges where it's located.

What you have to do

- find cakewalk.ini on disk

- start notepad.exe as administrator(look up exe-file and run as administrator)

- edit and save what you want to do in cakewalk.ini

 

Cakewalk installer does not make it user priviledge to edit in that location - which I think it should do.

I fixed that myself using icacls.exe command in a command prompt with adminstrator rights.

 

For some reason video is not stopped during count-in, it kind of stutters forward slowly  and when transport start it tries to catch up with really strange result. You cannot really record  live to this behavior.

It should really not move until transport do at all - and then with proper speed in sync as when doing normal playback on that section.

 

I can work around though, turn off count-in, and place cursor with own preroll kind of before spot to start recording - then it looks as played back.

Known feature?

I searched Feedback section, but not reported as I could see.

Thanks.

26 minutes ago, Starship Krupa said:

Annoying "You Can Already Do This" Man to the rescue!

As you have said that you're a longtime Cakewalker, forgive me if you already know this, but you can already add notes to each Track down in the Lanes. It's not immediately obvious (I found it by accident one evening), but open your Take Lanes and double-click in the empty black rectangle on the right end of the header and start typing. I use it all the time to make notes about just the things you mention: which mic I used, places I might have blown a phrase or note, which synth patch I used or what alternate synth patches might sound good if it's a MIDI track, etc. Since each Take Lane has one, you can make really detailed notes on every take, not just the track. If you want to have global notes about the track itself, you could add an empty take lane for that purpose.

Am I halucinating - there is a field in lane panel to just insert notes - just doubleclick and off you go. Really nice.

Also in Inspector - track tab - there is a field for track level notes.

Also in browser tab - usually on the right - key 'B' - there is overall notes for project.

There is this setting "rewind to now marker", not assigned by default to key command, to have playback cursor return to where you started last time - or not. I assign to return key to toggle.

Playback cursor is two parts - a grayish place holder triangle where it will return. So toggling this setting the gray triangle remain where you start - or not.

 

When returning to where you start - gray triangle is separate from bar when transport proceed.

When just stopping transport have playback cursor remain where it is - gray triangle also followed transport as it ran.

So this is visible as transport run which state it is.

If it's polyphonic it's probably full version Melodyne.

I've done it with monophonic material in Waves Tune.

If to do bass, it does not go that low on octave, but then I inserted Waves Ultrapitch and raised one octave, then Waves Tune on that, then transposed midi down one octave again.

It's very accurate as I discovered, inserting lots of midi pitch wheel, like I did on bass. But just remove that and raw midi notes are there. Simple way to get notation for one thing.

On 2/24/2020 at 2:13 PM, GreenLight said:

Very inspiring to hear all the things you like!

Any other interesting comparisons to Studio One? I've heard a lot of good things about it, and I'm genuinely curious about the pros and cons compared to Cakewalk.

StudioOne is a good daw, stable too the 15 months I ran it.

I like the style of automation you can do with VCA faders - overload automation of x number of tracks - and get nice dual visuals what totals do as well as the relative(or offset in Cakewalk). And when you feel like it you merge/freeze that into it all.

 

A somewhat bizarr suggestions comparison in Cakewalk manual says to route those tracks to Aux track and automate that track Aux track.  This is pretty much as doing it on a bus and then dry/wet relationship will change unless you route effect return possibly there to the same bus.

Best way I found to apply relative automation a bunch of tracks was to

- quick group them with automation lane visible.

- drag on one automation lane automation up/down(upper part) and they all follow as they are.

you could also do automation overwrite by arm for write automation(quick grouped is enough)

- and do playback and move one tracks fader

- press stop and this freeze into what you did on all tracks

 

if you have offset mode the above becomes relative existing automation.

 

I just find the VCA approach is more user friendly and when you feel you are done, you finalize it with a merge. which could be much later in mixing process. And when can do nested as well - it really shines above how to do it in Cakewalk.

Cakewalk approach you need to finalize it all in one go, while able to do Undo if not all satisfied. In this way I feel Cakewalk control how you work more - than just assist in what you want to do.

 

To expand on the sillyness of StudioOne recording on midi CC always become automation.

Example

- you start recording midi

- you start moving various CC controllers like leslie on/off into the clip where you feel like doing this

- stop recording

Now StudioOne created an automation of leslie that start beginning of clip, not where you actually started using it.

And first value recorded is obviously leslie on - so that is what you get - from start of clip.

So running playback on this - leslie goes on from start of clip, not as you recorded it some bars into clip.

Expand this to other things like into a midi recording you do move synth controller knobs like attack, decay and other things on envelopes.

This was the very deal breaker for me with StudioOne complely useless. Doing drawbar movements and stuff - not doable. They did not think this through. I get the feeling StudioOne target more people doing music all by programming - not recording live so much.

 

And other things is implications for midi cc as automation in StudioOne is once there you cannot remove it, there is always an initial value of that controller. I had to move clip to Sonar to remove it and then back into StudioOne. When playing my mod wheel moved by vibrations while playing - so accidentally got CC1 into clip - I could not remove. And no even list view at all to fix this.

 

Cakewalk do this right - all midi is kept as is unless you choose to convert to automation. You could even select a series of clips and have that done in one go - if you prefer that.

 

And one thing not mentioned - looks - Cakewalk really is easy on they eyes and clarity and easy to spot anything what is selected and stuff. You cannot in StudioOne see what track is selected, just about, if you have chosen a color for a track. Cakewalk always have this caption bar to have it's own color, which you can choose both active and non-active - so eyes easily spot what is selected and not. And also having theme editor you can dive in more if you want recoloring more.

Have to look into project saves. It really feels heavy saving every time - had one freeze running transport and doing something that saved - and freeze. I have 2 dump files, will see if to report.

StudioOne feels lighter on resources, and never had that heavy feel. I have a later version of same project in StudioOne, and nothing too it. Just imported some later takes on some midi into Cakewalk.

 

In StudioOne you more freely size different modules in console view. Cakewalk force sizes from bottom of screen and up depending on number of plugins and sends.

StudioOne also allow to drag copy/move sends easily, I miss that a bit in Cakewalk.

 

A few more comparisons....

Waves Ultrapitch comes to mind - different components to do 3 or 6 voices etc.

Each with pitch change, formant change like more femail/mail, or not, delay, gain of each voice and such.

So a tiny bit of harmony, just a touch - or not, just the formant to change EQ a bit not to get cancelling frequencies.

Part of the Gold bundle which probably is among the best value you can get in a campaign for like 40 plugs.

To just phatten up vocals Waves Doubler, also part of Gold bundle, is great too.

Place each double in stereo field and much more.

Recording stuff so intuitive

- everything names properly - if doing recording/stop/recording/stop - it's name Recording 1, Recording 2

- If it's takes with many recordings, it's Recording 1 Take 1, Recording 1 Take 2, Recording 2 Take 1 etc.

- all takes  remains with latest on top - even the one considered the active one.

 

In StudioOne I felt like fighting a windmill with these simple things, so you feel in control and organized in Cakewalk.

Some inconsistent Layer and take naming, and activating one take - it's removed from list and swapped around so you have no clue after a while what was last takes.

 

And Cakewalk has proper track templates - used in a flash, big timesaver

Audio on all outs from VST instruments - how it should be - and very good help doing automation later, not looking at just midi something.

Video has thumbnails.

Markers has this clever approach each marker can be anchored in time or MBT. - really good use of just one marker bar and doing video.

FX bay in track view - not needing inspector or console to see what is there.

MFX bay for midi tracks(wish for also allow VST midi plugins please vote or comment here 

Grouping controls is in another universe, and freedom beyond both StudioOne and Cubase - any control can be part of a group - a fader can run a knob if you want.

You have full sysex support both with manager or embedded as recorded.

All midi recorded and kept as is - and only by own conversion do you get automation from it(StudioOne is useless here, you cannot record live midi CC).

 

And this was just from the top of my head....thanks Bandlab for keeping this fine daw in progress....

Hi

For audio plugins it's possible to insert both DX-type and VST type.

MFX plugins for midi is DX technology - so why not VST type there too?

Thinking of large VST bundles like piz midi plugins.

It also has a ini-file to set how to identify itself - as synth, so so audio ins/outs or not etc.

 

I use today inside Patchwork from Bluecat, but would be handy for general use without serializing many tracks.

Thanks for any support on this.

With inserts you can do it, just drag to move to another track insert bay, Ctrl drag do copy etc.

 

I found no way to do that with sends - would be quick way to do it.

Thanks for any support on this.