greg54

I've been playing with it for a while this morning and found the issue.   For whatever reason, Breverb is the problem.  No matter what setting I have it on, reverb is just way too much and causes the problem I described.  I took it off and put Sonitus Reverb on the bus, and now everything works fine.  

Thanks for everyone's input!  I always appreciate it.

That's weird, because today I installed a new plugin right before I noticed the problem.

I'm going to uninstall the plugin and see if it resolves the issue.

Did you do Save As under a new name for the whole project?

Thanks!

That round orange button is on by default.  It's lit up.

All of a sudden I'm having issues with reverb.  I have it on a bus, and I use Sends on each track that I want to add reverb to.  But today when I was recording vocals, reverb is on even when I turn it off on the track.  I turned reverb off on my vocal track, and I still hear it through my headphones when I sing.  I finally found that it was coming from the Reverb bus.  I muted that, and there was no reverb.

But that shouldn't happen.  If I have reverb off on my vocal track, I shouldn't hear it.  Added to that, when I record vocals, everything sounds very harsh.  This is out of the blue.   I have the reverb plugin maxed out in my Reverb bus.  But when I turn the reverb knob up in my vocal track, I barely hear it, even when it's up 100%.  And when I turn the reverb knob off on my vocal track, I still hear it through my headphones when recording vocals.

Echo is not on in the vocal track (or anywhere else).  So I don't know what's causing the reverb to be on all the time, even if the knob is off.  And I don't know why vocals are all of a sudden harsh when I record them.  

57Greg and Starship Krupa:  Thanks for your input!   That's what I have come to understand.  A mix bus is NOT the Master bus but any bus that has effects that you route tracks into in order to share effects.  A week ago I emailed the guy who made the video I posted, and he sent me this article.   It says what you both said.

https://www.musicianonamission.com/mix-bus/

1 hour ago, Alan Tubbs said:

I think mix buss became popularized with all the effects that got latched onto the master out to differentiate it.  It is your master buss but you are hearing it with effects so you are mixing thru it.

It's interesting that all the videos I have watched about the mix bus do not say what it is or how to create it.  And come to find out, as you said, it's just the Master bus.   Thanks!

9 hours ago, bitflipper said:

However, there is some validity to the concept of LRC panning. The main message is you shouldn't be afraid to be aggressive in your panorama. A 10% adjustment may sound great while you're mixing, especially if you're using headphones. But out in the car or on your living room hi-fi it's going to be too subtle to hear. Instead of a nice wide mix it's semi-mono mush.

I prefer a modified LRC approach, which is to place almost everything into one of 5 positions: L100, L50, C, R50 and R100.

Footnote: people recommending LRC are assuming all your tracks are mono. While mono tracks are easier to mix and make for wider-sounding mixes, in practice you're probably going to have to work in some stereo tracks as well. That can be especially challenging if you're creating music entirely from synths and samplers, which all too often insist on being stereo, dammit!. A mix made from all stereo tracks can counter-intuitively sound more like wide mono if you don't handle panning properly. Fortunately, Cakewalk comes with a tool for panning stereo properly called Channel Tools. Even better, grab the panner from Boz Digital Labs

I think it was Mike Enjo who suggested converting a lot of stereo tracks into mono, which I have done.  I approach horn, piano and other such instruments played on the keyboard as if the real thing was recorded, so I make them mono.

But I've kept the pads stereo.   Making instruments mono and then panning 100% L or R adds to the width, to me.   But I too am beginning to see that LCR, for me, may not be the best way.   I put some instruments that are meant to stick out a bit more around 50-60% here and there.   These instruments are not playing all the time.  When they do play, and I want them to stick out more, I do what you suggested bitflipper, and bring them out of LR just a little.  But everything else, except for vocals, bass, kick, are LCR.  That seems to be working for me.

I will check out the Boz Digital Labs panner.  

Thanks, everyone!

Good to know.  Thanks!

For me, having the reference track in CbB is probably the easiest.   Right now all the info is kind of overloading my brain.  I'm watching videos and trying to understand, but it's all new to me.   I think I'll just take my time and watch and read and sift through it all.  But I appreciate all the help everyone is giving.  

One question I have:  I've been watching videos of mixing, and a lot of people say to mix Left Center Right, with nothing in between.  Is that how everyone here mixes?

11 hours ago, bitflipper said:

I haven't used references in years. Best reference is to listen to lots of well-made records on your monitors. Over just a few hours, you will subconsciously acquire a sense of what a well-made record sounds like on your speakers. It's a real phenomenon. I had originally read about it in a book on psychoacoustics, but can't remember now which book it was. I believe it's a real thing. It could even explain why some people insist that you have to "break in" your speakers, which I believe is nonsense.

I want to compare my songs to reference tracks only to get an idea of how "professionals" are mixing the bass along with the drums, and to get an idea of the vocals.  I want to get ideas from them, but not clone their sound.  Thanks!

21 hours ago, JnTuneTech said:

Just using commercially available tracks, from say a CD, are great for getting arrangements and mixing cues from, but not always tonal balance.

I'm new at mixing, so I began by asking how to get a reference track from a CD.   I've watched videos and read opinions.  I'm just trying to find what works.   Thanks!

Thanks, John Nelson!

John Vere:  I want to use reference tracks only to compare mix balance.  Others have commented that I can't use a reference track in mixing because a mix is being compared to a mastered song.  But all I want it for is to check mixes.   Thanks!

Thanks, Andres and OutrageProductions!  I appreciate your help!

45 minutes ago, Andres Medina said:

However, I need a secondary mix that goes to my speakers (hardware audio outs 3+4), because I need to process the audio that goes to the speakers in a different way that the "main" audio. Hence the use of a secondary "Main" bus. This one is fed by the Master Bus 1.

You can configure yet another Master Bus that goes to a headphone amp, and so on.

As you can see, busses can be very helpful, if properly used. 

Hope this helps -

I understand now about a mix bus.  But all the stuff you mentioned about a bus for audio 3+4 and another bus for headphones - that I don't understand.

What would be the purpose of creating a bus for audio outputs on my interface (I have 8 outputs) or for my headphones?

Also, if I put a reference track in my DAW, can I create a Reference bus to play it through?  

Thanks, Andres!

17 minutes ago, Byron Dickens said:

You just route the busses to the master.

All the buses I create for guitars, keyboards, horns, etc, are all routed to the Master bus?  So the Master bus is the mix bus?  That was easy.  Thanks, Byron!!

OutrageProductions, I watched the video you posted,.  Thanks!

I also watched another video by Hardcore Music Studio called, 8 things to do on every mix.   In it he says to create buses for all guitars, drums, keyboards, etc, which I understand.   In the video he says this around 3:25

Then he said  that "everything comes out a main mix bus."  And THAT is what I don't understand and have not seen anyone explain in a video.  What and how?

Thanks your help!  I appreciate it.  For whatever reason, my brain is having a hard time absorbing how to mix and create and use busses.

I have been watching a lot of videos trying to understand a mix bus.   None that I have found so far explain HOW to create a mix bus, only that I should use one.   They say that when you create a mix bus, route everything to it.  Ok.  How?   But if you have a Master bus and route everything to the mix bus, what's the purpose of the Master bus?  Probably easy to understand for everyone else, but for someone like me who is new to mixing, it makes no sense.  And videos don't explain it - at least, not the ones I've watched.

Does anyone have a video tutorial that explains how to create a mix bus and how to use it?

16 minutes ago, Bristol_Jonesey said:

See, therein lies the problem. You're comparing your, unmastered mix to a mastered reference track. If you can get close without master bus tweaks then kudos to you.

Just remember to leave some headroom for when it is mastered

I've watched at least a dozen videos or more on reference tracks, and so far all of them say to just drop a reference track into a track and compare it to my song to compare.  But none of them have said anything about the issue of the reference track being mastered and my mix track being unmastered.  It has not been mentioned as being an issue.  The only thing they say is to turn down the reference track so that it will be as loud as my mix. 

If you have a video in mind that talks about what you've mentioned, I would really like to watch it.  But so far, I haven't seen anyone talk about it.

1 hour ago, Bristol_Jonesey said:

Also, if the material you're working on isn't going through a mastering chain then, to my mind, the comparison is useless as you're not comparing like for like.

I'm mixing, so I don't have plugins on the Master bus at this point.  And I'm comparing levels and overall mix.   I've been watching a bunch of mixing videos, and so far they haven't addressed putting plugins on the Master bus during mixing.

Now I get it!   Thanks, everyone, for your comments and explanations.  I appreciate  the help!

41 minutes ago, gustabo said:

Check where your master bus is outputting to as a example as to where to output your reference track.

I've never thought about where the Master bus outputs to.  I always thought of the Master bus as where all the tracks are collected for overall volume control.  

I have another question.    What are you all using to compare your mix with the reference track?   I was looking at Izotope's Tonal Balance.   Is there one that's better?

Yes, I need to get the track off the CD and into Cakewalk.  I don't have Media Player, for whatever reason.

16 hours ago, Bristol_Jonesey said:

Just remember that any track you use as a reference will have already been mastered so route it directly to your interface, not your master buss

Not really understanding this.  Don't you just put the reference track into a track in your project?  Then you mute it when your song plays, then solo the reference track to compare.   Or is that not correct?