greg54

This is a new project, so the drums are routed to the Master bus.   I don't think the audio is routed to 2 tracks.  But I will check it out.

Thanks!

Greg

I'm using Toontrack SD3.   I like drums to be pretty dry.   For those of you familiar with SD3, when I go to the OH and AMB tracks and turn off all the reverb, I still have reverb on the snare - doesn't matter which snare I use.  

I did not install the mic bleeds.   So all reverb and echo is off on all drums parts.    The toms and kick are pretty dry.  But the snare is not.    I emailed Toontrack, and they asked me to send a sample, which I did.  But they said the sample sounded normal.   So I listened to it on my laptop, not my recording computer, and the snare sounded normal - fairly dry.

So it's an issue with my recording computer.  It's not the audio monitors, as I use 2 sets of monitors.   But for whatever reason, it's mainly the snare I have an issue with.  

Having said that, the Toontrack EZKeys that I have inside the project has little to no reverb at the moment.   But when I first open the project each time, there is a lot of delay on the keys.   When I open up Toontrack EZKeys, it goes away and is normal.    But not so with the drums.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Greg

12 hours ago, Cactus Music said:

I used to do clients and kept things tidy. Now I just keep spreading out and buying more gear !. My wife say's I better get it now before I retire and will have no money. 

I liked your idea of the bookshelf on that end wall. Put a couch or loveseat in there and throw rugs .  I would still use your acoustic panels you bought if anything just to make it look official  

One day I'll tidy my studio and re build a little bit. I plan on using some wood.... I like the sound of wood. 

Studio "B" is our TV room and it has  a wood ( 1" Fir)  floor and  a wood (2" spruce)  ceiling which happens to be the floor of the upstairs studio A.    

It's a 12x12 room but has Clutter being 2 stuffed chairs and a loveseat.   There are a lot of framed pictures on the wall ( diffusers?) and curtains on the windows. 

My wife and I have not only our furniture, but some of her parents' furniture in our garage.  And there is a love seat that we didn't know what to do with.   In fact, we have 2.     We also have lots of ugly pillows I can put on them.  We have some rugs too.   I'll just throw a bunch of stuff on that wall, along with the shelves in the garage. 

 As far as all my acoustic panels, I'll put them on the end of the room my desk and monitors are on and cover all the wall space.   Then on the back wall I can put the shelves and blankets and books, etc - clutter.    And we have plenty of pictures we didn't know what to do with.

Thanks for the ideas!

6 hours ago, msmcleod said:

I've used a 13 tog duvets in the past, which are a lot thicker than sleeping bags. The last time I bought a king size one (90 inches x 86 inches), it was only £12 (~$15) from Asda (UK equivalent of Walmart).

I've actually stapled two of them to the ceiling in my studio.... it makes it look like a padded cell, but it does reduce a lot of high frequency reflections.

The great thing about them is they're easy and cheap to replace, especially if you're making a curtain out of them.

All of my thick moving blankets will work.   

I'm also thinking about making some kind of small vocal booth.   I'll look into it and see if it's worth it.  Probably not

Thanks!

Clutter.   Well, I don't have 20 guitars or a ton of amps, but I can get plenty of  other stuff to clutter my room if that's all it takes  

We have books   

The closet in my room is full of boxes and musical stuff.   I can put all of that in the shelves in the room.  

I also have about a half dozen thick moving blankets that are about 6' or 7'.    So I can cover things up on that wall. one way or another.   The modular wall shelves we have in the garage have both doors and open shelves.   But it's only 4.6' wide.   I'm looking into adding modular shelves to fill in the rest of the space.

Thanks for everyone's input.   I really appreciate it!

Greg

With all the information given, I admit I was a little overwhelmed.   But after reading everything, it seems to me that all it's saying is, I need to cover my room with acoustic panels.   I just didn't do it correctly.

And I need to do something with my back wall.    But I have to know what panels to put where.   If that's it, then it's not so bad.  

Thanks!

Greg

At least I got one thing right.   I put thick curtains with lots of pleats on the sliding door when we moved in.

Before we remodeled this house, there were shelves with doors on that wall - which I had taken out.   They're still in the garage.  I can either put them back in or get something better.  Either way . . .

Thanks!

Tezza:   I agree that I need to get the back wall covered.  In a post I just did, I mentioned that I may get some kind of shelving on most of the wall that would bring it out about 2'.

I took down all the acoustic panels I had put up and am trying to figure out exactly what I want to do.

Yeah, I could try recording without the reflection filter and see how it sounds - as well as getting closer to the mic.  I used to sing pretty close to the mic, then I read I should be back further.   But I guess all situations are different and whatever works.

Thanks for the info!

Greg

I really didn't see the rules.   But I guess I wasn't looking either.

Thanks for the sketch, Steve!   Any info helps me.

I downloaded Sound Analyzer and will try that.

I really appreciate the offer to borrow the mic, but I'll end up getting my own - soon, I hope.   The good thing is that we're putting our old house up for sale in a couple of days.  HOPEFULLY it will sell in a decent amount of time.

My wife and I were talking, and we may put a shelf unit (almost floor to ceiling) on the back wall, which would bring the wall in about 2' or so.   It may not take up the entire wall, but most of it.   That would make the room closer to a 10'x12'.

And I could do bass traps in the corner and ceiling.   I think your suggestion was to put bass traps near the door on a stand.  I think that may work.  I was wondering what to do with that space.

I had no idea this little room would be such a pain.  But in the long run it will be worth it.

Thanks!

Greg

I did join John Sayers' site.   I read that I have to buy a mic and meter first to test the sound in my room.   I told a guy on that site who responded that I will get back as soon as I'm able to afford what I need, including monitors.

Seems like a lot of work to help me out, Steve.  But I really appreciate it.  Thanks!!

Greg

Lord Tim:   Yes, but I'm taking all the acoustic panels down on the back wall.   I'll have to find something to put against that wall - as well as figure out how to arrange the rest of the paneling.  Thanks!

11 hours ago, Cactus Music said:

The minute I saw the picture of your room my reaction was, Oh oh,  That's not going to work. And as said the "treatment" you tried is only going to help a little bit.  For now forget the room and try this_ 

The idea mentioned back a few posts about building a small enclosure to put your mike in for singing would be something you could do cheap. You could use those foam things.  I think that might help vocal recordings. Mikes on guitar amps don't usually pick up the room if they are close in. But you can do the same with an amp. I used to have this big box I made so I could crank my guitar and not scare the animals.  

And just don't worry about the way your speakers sound, mix on your headphones until you can come up with a plan of attack...like moving to a house with a nice room.  

We just moved into this house.  So I'm not going anywhere.   This room will have to do somehow.    Personally, I don't like mixing with headphones.  I like monitors.  

Thanks!

Greg

11 hours ago, Tezza said:

In that room, the vocal track should sound harsh and thin, if it sounds boomy, that's probably more to do with vocal technique, being too close to the microphone when singing.

You need to indicate what mic you used and how far from the mic you sing as well. If you upload the vocal track, say what mic you used, what audio interface and/or any preamps used.

Yes, the vocals sound harsh.    Too much reverb still.   I use an seElectronics X1S, about 8" away from the mic.   I also have a Mudguard behind the mic on a stand.   Focusrite 2i4 (2nd Gen) interface.   And I have an 8x10 rug on a hardwood floor.   House is wood paneling outside.

Thanks!

I recorded a single vocal track to upload here.   When I sent it to Bandlab Assistant Mix Editor, I can't hear it.     The meter moves, but no sound.   I can play it inside Bandlab, but not inside BL Assistant.   And the vocal track sounds boomy.   I thought the acoustic panels I put up would help, but no.

Greg

Steve Leverich:  It's the best drawing I could do.   If you need something else, let me know.  The window is 1' below the ceiling and is 2'H x 6'L.    

As for my DIY skills, I used to work in construction.   I can do some things.   I hate electrical stuff, but other stuff I'm ok with.

I've had the sliding door open most of the day.   The smell isn't as bad.  I'll continue to do that for the next few days.   

I live in northern CA.

Steve, I genuinely appreciate your help.  Thanks!

Greg

Steve:  I didn't take your comments as being mean.  I took them as being helpful, and I appreciate it.   

When my wife came into my room the other day, she said it "smelled."   So when you mentioned the fumes can kill you, I thought I might take down the panels based on that alone.

The panels I have put up, though, have made a big difference, as far as echo and reverb are concerned.  But with the audio issues, noise, and now this, I may call it quits.   I don't have a lot of money, and it seems I'll have to keep spending.  And if acoustic panels aren't the answer, I don't know what is.

Thanks,

Greg

5 minutes ago, Byron Dickens said:

What does "treated" mean?  Broadband bass traps and a combination of HF absorption and diffusion  or just some foam stuck on the wall?

Are you saying it's not good enough?  I have looked at many home studios and have watched videos.   Mine is basically what they recommended.   

Here's a couple of pics of my room.   I've added a few more panels.

11 hours ago, Cactus Music said:

If you look at what people use in "real" studios" for near fields you do not see brands like Presonus or KRK. 

You do see Yamaha's, Auratone, Genelec , Meyer, JBL and others.  

Music stores tend to push certain brands and if the price is right there will be a lot of people using those brands therefore a lot of good reviews by amature users.  But you won't find that stuff in a real studio.  Not saying you need the top of the line gear to make good recordings but you do need to be aware of what it is your compromising and learn how to adjust your expectations.  I don't think you need to spend any money, You just need to know how your speakers translate to the real world. Having something like the Yamaha's just makes this easier. And they do still make very similar versions of the NSM 10 in an updated powered version  https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/HS8--yamaha-hs8-8-inch-powered-studio-monitor-black   

Thanks!  I will check into them.

10 hours ago, Tezza said:

 

The gen 1's are square, the gen 2's have screws on the front, the gen 3's have no screws on the front and both high and low frequency adjustment on the back. You should get a good sound out of them in your situation although if I had that set up, I would probably lookout for some HS8's or even HS7's, I see Adam's around as well, would like to try those. I tend to buy a lot of secondhand gear because there is a lot of it about, if I don't like it, I just on sell it, mostly at a profit or no loss.  These models are popularly found going around the second hand places. I would stay away from the HS5's (too bass thin) and the HS series in general can have popping issues when you turn them on/off so look out for that, it can be annoying, I had HS5's, one popped the other didn't. They were terrible for my situation.

The Rokits have that circuitry, I just leave them turned on at the back and they get turned on or off from the wall, no popping or funny noises.

After trying numerous monitors over the years, I came to the conclusion that for my uses, a 6 inch is the minimum size I can go, normally, I wouldn't look at a monitor under 6 inches but my current situation means the 5's will have to do, although there is a 6 inch version at a very good price in my region available, I may end up getting it.

Definately in your situation, I wouldn't go below a 6 inch monitor.

I have Gen 3's.   I also leave them on, plugged into a power conditioner.  When i turn it on, they're automatically on.   Very slight popping though.  My old room was small, so the 5" speakers were fine.  But now that my room is 12.5" x 12.5", I could use an upgrade.

Scook:   Maybe 8" speakers would work better for me in a 12x12 room.

7 hours ago, Steve Leverich said:

Assuming your ceiling is 8', the only WORSE combination would be if it were 12' ALSO - I'm not sure ANY amount of "treatment" could make that size/shape room sound OK. Here's a really simple spreadsheet I wrote about 20 years ago, it only does axial modes - I've entered your dim's into it and assumed 8' ceiling. A decent sounding room (rectangular) would have a steadily increasing height of the bars from left to right, with NO TWO being the SAME height - all those equal height bars mean that your axial modes are "bunching up" and creating peaks in response of the room.

The picture is what your room (again, assuming 8' ceiling) would look like; I've also included the spreadsheet I used so you can play with some other dimensions - just enter L, W, H values in the upper left corner, just below those letters. Try dimensions that are NOT evenly divisible by each other until you get a fairly smooth rise from left to right. If you don't have Excel, you can get Libre Office for free, here   https://www.libreoffice.org/

Bottom line, it's no wonder to me your headphones sound better than ANY speakers would... Steve (AKA "knightfly")

Oh, almost forgot - can you explain more what/how/where your treatments are? the more detail, the better...

 

roomtune.xls

Thanks, Steve!  I appreciate this.   My ceilings are 8'.    And I have Excel.

3 hours ago, StarTekh said:

Vintage  yamaha ns 10 studio's on stand by.. you wana talk clear ?

Yeah, but they don't make them anymore.  And when it comes to electronic stuff like this, I prefer new.  I don't trust used.

2 hours ago, Kev said:

It's not about the brand. The Rokits are just KRK's cheerful entry-level model. I'm guessing that your M-Audio monitors were too. 

Yes.

19 minutes ago, Tezza said:

Nothing wrong with the KRK's, are they gen 3's or before. Most people who like to criticize the Rokits don't know what they were made for, or how to use them. Most people think Rokits are for EDM with excessive bass and to be played loudly. While you can do this, this is not the main advantage of them. If they are gen 3's then it's impossible for them to sound harsh, you have both high and low adjustments on the back of the monitor, you have to set them up according to your room. None of the Rokit series sound harsh in my opinion though.

Rokits were designed to give the average person the best possible chance of creating a frequency balanced mix in ANY environment (even right up against a wall). They do this very well and front ports are better for this. In a bad room you can use them at VERY LOW volumes in the traditional 3-4 foot triangle for mixing all day long, they are not fatiguing at all and the end results will be in the ballpark. You can turn them up a bit to check things but if you are in a bad environment, the minute you turn them up you will be at the mercy of the reflections in your room, you cannot compensate for a bad environment completely.

Most people do not have acoustically treated, dedicated spaces for their music production, so monitors like the Rokits are a very good option as they provide good size options for different spaces as well.

If you have a dedicated space that is acoustically treated and you can move the speakers away from the rear and side walls and your neighbours don't mind turning the volume up, then that opens the door to rear ported speakers and a whole bunch of different options. In fact, I wouldn't recommend Rokits for this environment.

But if you are in an acoustically untreated bedroom with limited space and noise level concerns, putting together a music workstation with many different components competing for your wallet, or you are mobile, then I would highly recommend the Rokits.

It might be that you have become used to hearing audio through your headphones, this may be the primary way you listen to audio, I don't know. Depending on what headphones you use, you might have become used to the bass heavy, closed back headphone sound and find monitors lacking. You want to use open backed headphones for mixing if at all possible.

I am traveling and am in caravans, cabins and kitchens etc I have a couple of gen 3 5inch Rokits and they are great at compensating for a lot of situations. I have had no noise complaints from neighbours, I might turn them up a bit on Friday or Saturday nights, but that is mainly to compensate for the loud shouting, swearing and fighting that goes on around me sometimes, if any of those arseholes would DARE to complain about my noise.....

 

I bought the Rokits less than a year ago.  So they may be Gen 3's.    I don't know. 

The room I have is about 12'x12'.   It is acoustically treated.   My neighbors aren't that close, so I can turn the volume up a bit.    The monitors are in the middle of the wall and are about 16" away from the wall.    So they're not in a corner.

I mainly listen through the monitors, not headphones.  I use headphones to check for noise and when I'm mixing.

Aside from the no longer in production Yamaha NS10's, what monitors (a pair being no more than $1K) would you recommend?    I read some good things about the Presonus Sceptre.

Thanks!

Greg

2 hours ago, msmcleod said:

If everything sounds fine through headphones, then there's nothing wrong with your recording.

IMHO it's likely to be a monitor / room combination. In other words, your speakers aren't "matched" to your room so they give a flat response at all frequencies.

A few of us here use IK Multimedia ARC-2 or Sonarworks Reference Studio as room correction. My studio is a terrible room, but ARC-2 completely transformed it for me.

It may be however, you could get away with a graphic EQ if you've got some way of measuring your room... maybe borrow ARC-2 from someone and try to match it with a graphic EQ?

 

Ok, I'll have to go over the monitors/room and see if I can find something there.   Yeah, I was wondering why it sounded good in headphones but not through monitors.  But it's just the audio, so that threw me off.

I will look into ARC-2 or Sonarworks.   Thanks, Mark!

17 minutes ago, Cactus Music said:

Well this is a huge clue to me. Your monitors possibly are midrange  harsh and not accurate. I read that they sound great for hard rock but suck for acoustic and clean sounds.  What qualifies as an  accurate monitor is a subjective subject so I won't go there, but myself I own a set of Yamaha NSM 10's for this reason. 

Speaking of inaccurate, I just bought a set of  Mackie CR4.  They are boomy in the low end but I knew that before I bought them. They were very affordable, look cool and meet the rest of my requirements.  I needed real small, balanced inputs and  the volume on/off  on the front.    I don't do final mixing on them just tracking. . So I quickly got used to their inaccurate sound and I ignore it.  Possibly you need to do the same for the KRK's. 

That is why I asked you what your final mixes sound like on other systems. If they sound great, then your fussing over a detail that doesn't really matter in the end. If it bothers you, take your mixes to a music store and audition studio monitors. But bring lots of cash! 

But both the M-Audio's and KRK's cause the audio to sound the same.    I was just looking at the Presonus Sceptre S6.    I may check them out.

Anyway, thanks to everyone who responded.   I appreciate it!

Greg

1 hour ago, Cactus Music said:

And from what I've read in reviews those KRK's are not an accurate monitor so are not to be trusted either.   

They were what I could afford at the time.   What would you recommend?

My room is treated.

And another thing I remembered....through headphones everything seems to sound fine, including the audio.   

I used to use M-Audio monitors before the KRK's.  But the sound is the same, as far as audio is concerned.    But what baffles me is, sometimes the audio is decent when I record.   It's usually when I have done a clean install.    

16 hours ago, Cactus Music said:

  What do your VST instruments sound like?  If they sound good then there is nothing wrong with your set up. Your just not recording through a signal path that's working for you. 

How are you monitoring?  What brand of monitors ?  If you make a CD of the recording does it still sound terrible elsewhere?  If you say your monitors sound great with VST's and pre recorded material that will rule out half of what could be wrong. 

Computer settings, software, updates etc have no bearing on how digital recordings sounds. It will record exactly what is processed at the A/D convertors.  Only item at play would be your interfaces ASIO drivers. It is possible for those to become buggered so make sure you at least download the latest and/ or re install them. 

Bad sounding audio is a hardware issue.  Either you front end is not up to it or your back end is crappy sounding.  We can easily rule out the back end if you say it's OK. 

You could try 10 different mikes and still not get the sound your after.  You could use 10 different pre amps etc.  It's a lifelong quest to gather the right gear that sounds the way you want. What works for one does not work for all.   

 

My VST instruments all sound great.   My only problem is with audio.   I'm using KRK Rokit 5 monitors.    

Computer settings:  I've gone through and have "optimized" my computer for recording, according to a couple of different articles/videos.   

My interface drivers are all up to date.  

"Bad sounding audio is a hardware issue."    I have replaced (upgraded) everything - interface, monitors, cables, even computer, more than once.  

As far as I know, my equipment is good.

Gswitz, Kev:   I'm not ignoring you.    I don't want to post it on Soundcloud.   I'll see what I can do.

Thanks,

Greg

Bypassing the FX didn't make any difference.   I guess I'll just have to try and get it to sound as good as I can with EQ.

Thanks!

Greg

Ok, I'll try that.    Thanks!

When I turn the Audio Engine button off, the second I hit Play it comes back on.   So I'm not sure if I'm supposed to disable it or just turn it off momentarily.