whipsmart

55 minutes ago, Starship Krupa said:

I see that you've done some investigation into the matter of other playback programs routing through the Windows mixer, as opposed to Cakewalk, which goes direct if you're using WASAPI or ASIO. Which you always should be regardless of what audio device you're listening through.

If Resolve can use WASAPI, switch to that and see if you still get the crappy sound.

There are also good music players that can use WASAPI and ASIO (and therefore bypass the Windows mixer). MusicBee is freeware and can do this. I recommend using it or something similar for listening to final mixes. If it sounds good in MusicBee in WASAPI Exclusive but not in other programs, then you know for sure that the export is good and there is something wrong with the output configuration of the other programs.

Yes a previous sound quality issue I had was related to the playback outside of Cakewalk being affected by Windows Spatial and audio Enhancements.  I've since turned all that off in the Windows settings and that problem from then is gone now.  I think the Fairlight page in Resolve is set to use ASIO and the Focusrite 4i4, and it sounds ok in Resolve, but the exports from Resolve are bad too.  I think it might be AAC compression in the MP4 settings that you can't edit.  Perhaps I shouldn't try a YouTube export option (even though that's the target), but instead do the highest export possibly and let YouTube compress it?

Again thanks for the tip - I will check MusicBee out as well and see how that sounds.

38 minutes ago, Starship Krupa said:

This could be many things.

I wouldn't worry about your headphones as a source of confusion. After all, you can hear the artifacts using the same headphones in programs other than Cakewalk. Curious, though: what model AT's are you using? My go-to cans are M50x's, which are brutally capable of revealing details like this. In general, any hard-wired MT series should be delivering pretty honest headphone mixes, from the M20x on up. Bluetooth has to go through extra CODEC's, and the fewer of those your audio passes through, the better.

 

Yes, mine are the ATH-M50x too - I love them.  Yeah I never use Bluetooth for headphones mostly because of latency.  I love these - I just wonder if I'm doing a poor man's monitor like bdickens mentioned and I'm introducing bad mixes into the workflow.  But I thought these were relatively flat?

Get a copy of Bitter and put it in the FX rack of whatever bus you're taking your export from, or that last one you route through before it goes to the hardware outs (Cakewalk's default "Entire Mix" export location). For whatever reason, you may be getting intersample clipping, and Bitter can find those. The mystery is why it's only happening during Export and not simple playback, but you can try to address that in the following ways.

I don't take my exports from the hardware outputs. I set up a dedicated bus that I route the Master bus to. I have a sophisticated metering plug-in on this bus (I use Mastering the Mix LEVELS, but Meldaproduction's MLoudnessAnalyzer from their FreeFX bundle will also work) to make sure that the levels I'm sending to the rendering engine are the same as what I'm listening to.

Thanks for the tip on Bitter - I'll check it out. And I'll google "intersample clipping" I know what clipping sounds like - but I don't know what you mean here exactly.  I have a series of VSTs that are decent (I think?) - I picked them up during the last major IK sale - I have T-Racks 5 with a few metering plugins plus the Stealth Limiter and the Lurssen Mastering Console - but admittedly I'm a huge noob with them and have barely touched them yet.  I'll check out the one you mentioned to see how the metering works on that.  I had been considering an Izotope metering plugin I'd seen that seemed very comprehensive and had spectrum analyzers too.

Is it possible that during export, you're bypassing a limiter or compressor that is engaged during mixing? That might result in the export having interstage clipping. Also, too low a level during export can also result in degraded sound quality. With digital, the sweet spot is huge, but there are still ways to get outside it.

Also: are you using plug-in oversampling, the 64-bit mix engine or the 64-bit rendering engine, or any combination of the above? Some plug-ins go sideways with combinations of the above. I've found that for safest reduction of aliasing, if I just render the project at 88.2KHz I get the benefits without the possible unwanted side effects. Then I use a separate converter program on the exported file to generate formats for distribution or use in video production (MediaHuman is my favorite freeware convertor). In your case, you would render at 96KHz, as that is double your project rate.

Try doing a render with all of your FX bypassed and listen to the results. Maybe a plug-in is going weird at render time, and that might help find it.

I'm fairly certain that all boxes are ticked in the export panel and nothing is being omitted.  The signal is hot enough too, so it's not that.  I have no idea whether I'm using plugin oversampling or not. In the past before I got my FocusRite 4i4, I wasn't sure about messing with sampling rates in case my hardware couldn't handle it, I think it can now, but my Cakewalk rate is only set to 48000, but I'm ok with that in the mix and it sounds ok to me in my M50x headphones.  I'd be worried about changing it after I started the project because I have a lot of recorded tracks.

Thanks for the tips! I will keep investigating.

14 hours ago, John Vere said:

Are you rendering your Melodyne clips before you export?   You should always render after editing with Melodyne. 
 

Watch video 27 and you might also benefit from watching # 28, 29 and 24 which explains setting up a proper export  

 

Thanks for that - I will check out the export tips - appreciate that!

And no, I haven't been rendering Melpdyne tracks before mixdown - I've been worried about going a step too far and needing to edit something so have been avoiding freezing or Rendering the Region FX.  I've also been using the Take lanes for vocal comping and then creating a Region FX on that for Melodyne, so I end up duplicating the original tracks for backup in the project before the comping, and duplicating again after Melodyne editing the regin FX, and then final effects etc on the 3rd dupe.  I assume that's the safest way to keep stuff if I have to go back.  Sometimes I grab a word or syllable from another track's Melodyne and paste it into another Melodyne track, and if I render I can't do that anymore late in the game.

 I tend to use greyed out track colors and folders to store backuped original tracks in case I screw up and need to redo a step.  My laptop has so far been pretty powerful and my FocusRite seems solid so it's not too cluttered.

I'll read what you sent, but do you suggest Flattening the Comp before creating the Melodyne Region FX?  I also don't Freeze tracks - should I be doing that?

Thanks!

7 minutes ago, bdickens said:

It's because you don't have an accurate monitoring environment as well as everything else in your previous thread on the same subject.

Thank you for reminding me, but I checked my previous thread and the spatial audio settings are off this time. I’m wondering if I’m pushing melodyne too hard but for some reason the real-time melody be sounds fine but the render audio does not? How else can I track it down? Is this a compression thing? I thought waves we’re uncompressed. 

5 minutes ago, bdickens said:

It's because you don't have an accurate monitoring environment as well as everything else in your previous thread on the same subject.

I’m using pro Audio Technica headphones to edit and mix and the same to test the output. I would think that isn’t it?

Can anyone help me track down why my output is Harsh and Tinny and has some weird digital distortion?  I'm using Melodyne to tune audio and the problem I'm having is particularly on vocals though happens to some cymbals and drums too.  Siblance or syllables like "Shh" from "she" or other phrases really grate on my ears in the output - however when playing back inside Cakewalk it sounds perfect!   I'm trying the files in windows as well as using them for a music video constructed in Davinci Resolve - this may be more pronounced in Resolve too. 

No matter if I export an mp3 (at 256 with highest fixed quality) or a 48000 wave file - some parts of the song just sound really painful like grating digital or harsh tinny, sounds - only on specific parts.  This doesn't sound like clipping.  But why would it sound awesome inside Cakewalk but be littered with annoying issues when in Windows or in Resolve or it its video output?  Is this a Melodyne Rendering artifact that only affects mixdown?

On 4/22/2022 at 12:09 AM, msmcleod said:

Check your template folder within preferences, and then navigate there within Windows Explorer to check the template files are there:



If you've changed the template locations, you can copy the templates from the default location (shown above) to your new location.

If this still doesn't fix the problem, delete the following file before opening Cakewalk:

%APPDATA%\Cakewalk\Cakewalk Core\Offline.html

 

I missed your response a while ago - sorry.  But I checked and those Project and Track Template folders are empty now - but I obviously hadn't deleted them - I think a Cakewalk update deleted them.  How do I get them back?

I updated to 2022.02 a little while ago and just noticed a new poblem.  The New window no longer shows all the templates at all in the Start Screen or in the New window.  Where did they all go?  How do I get all the default templates back for MIDI and Audio and channel selections.  I know I can make my own, but I want the defaults like I used to have them.  thanks for any help!

I think I found it.  Turns out besides disabling the Windows 10 Enhancements in the Sound Settings (which did nothing), what I found out, was that there was an additional sound effects system on my laptop in the Alienware Sound Center, for gaming, but that clearly was tweaking the sound to be unpleasant in the high end.  When I disabled that as well, alot of the problems disappeared.  I didn't realize there would be multiple sound enhancements going on. 

thanks for your help!

20 hours ago, Nigel Mackay said:

Uninstall Cakewalk. Install Sonar. Install Cakewalk. Accept default folders in all cases. CbB will see all the Sonar plugins.

As for sounding different in Cakewalk, Windows may very well use an app for playback the has settings that is messing with the sound.

 

Thanks! As for Windows 10 - I went through all the other posts and everyone said to go into Sound Settings Playback and disable Enhancements - which I did but it still sounds bad...??

17 hours ago, John Vere said:

All you have to do is log on to Command center. You can then install most of the plug ins that came with the older versions.  Most have there own installers and activation codes so no need to even install X3. 

You really should have all those backed up anyway as there's  $1,000's worth of stuff well worth keeping safe. When Gibson shut down  most of us made backups of everything including all the serial numbers etc.  All you're Cakewalk products should still be accessible from the old Web site  https://www.cakewalk.com/My-Account

You don't need the disk but you can still use them. Log in and go to My Products. If you can't log in Support here will help you with that still. 

This is a list of all included plug ins- a user created. 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fa9totrruxnlmvq/Sonar_Plugins_3 to X3.xlsx?dl=0

https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=SONAR&language=3&help=Plug-ins.1.html

It is recommended you start with the oldest version and work your way forward. Myself I have never done this and had no issues at all. I just wait till the day I needed something and run the installer for that version  bare bones. Uncheck everything but the one plug in I need. The Software takes up very little room. But the items I mentioned all have separate installers and for me I have back ups of the old Command Center download folder so I just install Command center and before I run it, I copy every thing into that folder. This saves re-downloading the files so is fast.  

Here's the link to the videos-

https://sites.google.com/view/cactus-studios/cakewalk-videos

 

 

Wow - I mean I have all the installers and my serial numbers - but I didn't even know about Command Center for Cakewalk until your post.  Just searched it and found it.  Don't ever remember getting an email about it - totally missed that.  I'll check it out and your videos and report back - thanks!!

20 hours ago, John Vere said:

Another tool I use that you should have if you had Sonar is the LP Multi Band compressor and the BTBrickwall 

Put these in the effects bin of the Master buss stacked like this 

LP multi band

BT brickwall

Span

Youlean meter 

On the multi band chose the mastering light pre set  this will show you which frequencies are too hot if they show a lot of reduction happening. 
Set the brick wall at -0.8 or whatever you personal preferences are. 
As a note . Your audio playback system makes no changes to an export wave file. Burn a CD or put it on a stick and playback on other devices. At this point try and proof as a Wave file not an MP3 as the encoding software can definitely make a difference with MP  3 

 

 

 

Hi I will definitely try this. 
I am proofing as a wave and the wav sounds fine when reimported back into Cakewalk. Just not in any win app and I think also not in the .mp4 rendered out to youtube. 
 

I have tried the Wav raw on iPhone and it sounds brittle or something too. I have not burnt a cd yet because I don’t really have one. 

I still don’t get why it’s sounds perfect when playback in cakewalk and horrible exported  my settings for wav export seem fine. Is Cakewalk playing back the bus differently than the export is created?

I will try the tools you mentioned. Your sig  is not shown in mobile forums so I’ll check on a computer and watch that video. Thanks!
 

so one thing I don’t know how to do to get some of the tools you mention is install older plugins that came with sonar. I have the discs keys and installers for Sonar X1, X2, & X3 platinum/pro?/the full one. 
 

So they’re not installed on my win 10 laptop but latest cakewalk by Bandlab is. Are the tools you mention with Sonar X3? And if so is it safe to install Sonar X3 after Cakewalk is already in there? Will it screw anything up? I have separate folders for 32bitVSTs & 64bitVSTs and content samples on D drive ssd. 
 

im assuming I can install X3 it installs the plugins then I uninstall X3 and it keeps the plugins and Cakealk by Bandlab gets unharmed by this process? Is that the best way to get all the extra plugins from the old days?

I’ll come back and solve this once I try it out  and confirm  

thanks for your help!

Hi,

I'm using the latest Cakewalk by Bandlab (and a bunch of old Sonar and other VSTs).  I've also searched and read threads about my problem first - but it may be different:

When I listen to my song inside Cakewalk, everything sounds great.  When I export it, the WAV file sounds worse (hard to quantify how much worse - some people might not mind - but i definitely notice it) - it's tinny or weird.  Kind of like the crash cymbals and highhats and high end are being digitally? compressed? or messed up somehow.  It's almost annoying or grating when the high end crashes hit.  Like fingernails on a chalkboard to me.  So to me it's noticeable and seems like an inferior mix.  It's not clipping at the hits (as far as I can tell).

It sounds bad in VLC, Audacity, and DaVinci Resolve (video editor).  When I upload to YouTube and playback on my phone it's still there and annoying, but not as grating.

Not sure what the problem is - I've looked through old threads and seen that people say Windows 10 EQs or messes stuff up with default filters.  I went into the Win 10 sound settings and turned off the Enhancements and that doesn't seem to make a difference as far as I can tell.

I also reloaded the WAV into Cakewalk - and it sounds ok in there in an audio track - which points to the export being OK.  But why if I have Enhancements disabled in the Win 10 Sound settings does the audio sound so annoying on the high end?? 

And if it is just my playback, then why does it sound bad in video format on youtube (rendered via DaVinci resolve) on a different device?  Is Resolve reading the some how secretly filtered audio and then writing that to the .mp4 file I'm uploading to YouTube?

I'm using a super fast Alienware laptop with the stock Realtek ASIO HD Audio output with 16Gb RAM & SSDs and Cakewalk reports it's flying great. 

(Yes I know you don't use onboard audio interfaces, but turns out my old Edirol 10in10out FA-101 is firewire -  which doesn't exist in Win 10 - so I'm still debating an M-Audio 192/6 or Focusrite 4in4out Scarlett, or a Motu-4... But since I'm just using VSTs at the moment  and not recording audio, I figure that should work.

Does it matter that some of these are not routed through busses as I'm just doing some quick & dirty stuff and the mix is good enough in Cakewalk as is.

Sorry for the long post - hope there's enough information for anyone to help or point me in the right direction other than "get a new interface".  Because it sounds awesome inside Cakewalk.  thanks!